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Alfred B.: --Got to be there for the church, organize and come forward.
Well, that makes-- that's, we'd call it the Second Baptist Church. We we we
have our own sovereign pie and nobody to bother. We-- there's no split
church. Yeah, we come, they come from scratch. That's why it is a second
Baptist church.
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Peter Gottlieb: Now the people who started Second Baptist, had they been
members up here at Clark Memorial? Alfred B.: No. No.
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Gottlieb: They hadn't been. Alfred B.: As I before stated. You live in a
certain district waiting to hear whether you come or not. You know.
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Gottlieb: Oh. Oh. Well, you said that your father had his family up here
on the hill at one time. Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Well, that was close to
Clark Memorial. Did he attend when he was living up here?
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Alfred B.: Well, our church had been started then.
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Gottlieb: Oh, I see. So he was going on down there.
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Alfred B.: It was a, it was recognized in the Allegheny General Baptist
Association in the year of 1908. Uh huh.
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Gottlieb: It's-- why didn't the people who lived up here on the hill want
to have anything to do with those down in the ward? Do you know?
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Alfred B.: Just like any other society, you know, groups. You know, they
want to want, uh, yeah, like, let's put it like this. Like in a rich
district they don't want no poor man coming in or something like that. You
know, I call it superiority complex. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah.
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Gottlieb: You think the people-- well, I won't ask you again.
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Alfred B.: But now it's different. It's entirely different now. Gottlieb:
Yeah. And got a different.
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Gottlieb: Would you say that most of the people who live down in the ward
at that time were poorer than the people who lived up here on the hill?
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Alfred B.: No, there weren't any. I just made that as a parable. But, uh,
no, there was no poorer because the people on the hill would come down here
at night and have their fun. But when they get back to their hill in
daylight, that was it. You see.
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Gottlieb: I... I've heard the names of a couple of men who, along with
your father, were involved with establishing Second Baptist Church. And I
was wondering if you had ever known them-- a man by name Prince
Cunningham.
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Alfred B.: Prince Cunningham. He was a minister. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred
B.: Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Did he. Did he ever pastor Second Baptist Church?
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Alfred B.: Yeah, he pastored. But he-- see what I mean by calling to take
over the pastor-- the charge. See, yeah. We had what I call missionaries.
You know, they come from-- evangelists, you know. When he comes from
scratch. I remember when they used to have their meetings up over a
blacksmith's shop. I can remember that they, you know, wherever they could
get a place. Oh.
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Gottlieb: What about Deacon Walker?
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Gottlieb: Do you remember him? Alfred B.: He's one of the charter members
too. Meade. Deacon Meade Walker. And there was a man by the name of Lacy,
and he was a nice kid. Lynn.
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Gottlieb: William Lynn. Was that the man? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: He's
still alive, is he not? Alfred B.: Yeah, he's still alive.
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Alfred B.: Some of them, I just Can't call the name right off hand right
now.
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Gottlieb: Mm hmm. But... but at the time that the church got started, this
was a group of people who lived down there.
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Alfred B.: Yeah, A group of people got together and said they wanted to go
to mission. They started out, like, as a mission. And later on, it took
Reverend Morton. They selected him in 1914. He used to work in the mill,
too.
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Gottlieb: Yeah. Do you know what kind of job he used to have there?
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Alfred B.: No, I don't. Because I was small then myself.
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Gottlieb: Can you tell me what you remember about Reverend Morton? What
kind of person he was?
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Alfred B.: He's a great big giant of a man to me, you know. Six foot
something. And he's very lovable, but he was very strict. But he said he
meant and he couldn't find him in fault of anything, you know? And he tried
to teach his congregation as he lived himself. Yes, and he--
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Gottlieb: Was he looked up to you very much?
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Alfred B.: Yes, indeed, very much so. He was a former minister-- not a
minister, member of Clark Memorial when we called him.
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Gottlieb: What about the people who lived up here on the hill? Do you
think that they also looked up to Reverend Morton?
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Alfred B.: Yes. Oh, yeah, with the highest respect. He was a great man. I
know I had his picture--no, I got it. What happened to that? I don't know.
I could have showed it to you. I got it put away somewhere. We had this
picture down at the church. He was a very good man, hard worker.
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Gottlieb: So your father had been one of this original group? [Alfred B.:
Yeah, yeah, yeah] He was a charter member himself.
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Alfred B.: One of the originators. My mother, too.
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Gottlieb: Had there been any kind of, uh, I guess I might call it a
theological disagreement between among members of Clark Memorial.
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Alfred B.: No, no, no, no.
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Gottlieb: Because you mentioned once or definitely that it wasn't a split
church and it wasn't--
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Alfred B.: No split church.
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Gottlieb: I wasn't sure what you meant by that.
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Alfred B.: Well, what I mean by split church, just like you take, take--
say you just take this, like this card here. That's a, that's a whole. One
want to go one way and one want to go the other way. You just, that's a
split. Well, they go and set up a church here and somebody goes and set up
a church here. That's what they call a split church. That's a congregation
going apart. Our church came from scratch.
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Gottlieb: Uh. So what that would mean is that the people who started, like
your father, who started Second Baptist Church, hadn't been members of
[Alfred B.: No] Nevermore and they hadn't been.
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Alfred B.: Members of no church.
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Gottlieb: They hadn't had a church at all? Alfred B.: No. Gottlieb: Your
father hadn't gone to church before Second Baptist began?
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Alfred B.: Not that I know of, no.
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Gottlieb: But he was a religious man. Alfred B.: Yeah
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Gottlieb: Do you-- Alfred B.: H long the mission was, I don't know. Yeah,
that was before I was born.
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Gottlieb: Uh, do you remember if these other men who were charter members
like Deacon Walker and Prince Cunningham and these people were also from
the South, like your father was?
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Alfred B.: Yeah. All of them came from the South. [Gottlieb: Do you--]
What part of the South, I can't tell you that.
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Gottlieb: That was going to be my next question.
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Alfred B.: No, I couldn't tell you what part.
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Gottlieb: One thing I've been interested in is it seems to me, and I'm not
too sure that this is true or not, the older members of Second Baptist seem
to be-- to me to be mainly from the states of South Carolina and North
Carolina. Those who came up, those who were born in the South and came up.
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Alfred B.: No, some of them might have been. Yeah. Mm hmm.
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Gottlieb: But that. I'm not talking about your father's generation. I'm
talking more about your generation. And but that the older members of Clark
Memorial, because I've spoken to some of the members of that church, seem
to be mainly from Virginia. Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: Is that true?
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Alfred B.: Reverend Jones? He was the first pastor that I, that I would
know of. He was from the same place my father was from.
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Gottlieb: Had they known each other down there?
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Alfred B.: Oh yeah. They knew each other down there. Yeah. He pastored a
church down there. Reverend Jones. So I hear them say. Yeah. Mm hmm. Then
when he comes here, he took over the Clark Memorial Church. That church had
made some strides too. Gottlieb: Clark Memorial? Alfred B.: Mhm
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Gottlieb: Yeah. I've been reading the Pittsburgh Courier for my research,
and I, I got to the point-- It was in 1923 when they opened this building
over here. Alfred B.: With the new building. Gottlieb: Yeah.
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Alfred B.: And the other building was just across the street. Gottlieb:
From here? Alfred B.: No, from this, the new church. Gottlieb: Oh. Alfred
B.: Their old church is right across the street from it. Well, Bob Turner,
he has his body shop in there.
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Gottlieb: Uh huh. Well, I read about how they had a parade and they
marched from the old building to the new building. And that Reverend
Morton.
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Alfred B.: Oh, that. You're talking about that Western Clark Memorial.
You're talking about Reverend Morton? Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah. We
marched from Sixth Avenue. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: That was 222. We
marched from there to Fourth Avenue where we had bought a church. Gottlieb:
Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Well, the Courier story was about Clark Memorial and how and how
they had marched to their new church. But I--
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Alfred B.: We just went across the street. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: We
went, we went to Fourth Avenue from Sixth. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah.
On a bright, sunny morning too.
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Gottlieb: So and but I was noticing in that story that Reverend Morton had
preached a sermon in Clark Memorial at that time, so.
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Alfred B.: Oh, yeah, he-- he was a young minister there. He was a member
of the Clark Memorial. Gottlieb: Yeah.
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Gottlieb: I also understand that he had pastored another church.
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Alfred B.: Yeah. Out in I think it was Bruceton or someplace he had
pastored. That's when we called him. We called him from that church. Yeah.
He was pastoring out there. I think it was Bruceton. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Um, and this might be something you wouldn't remember, but I was
wondering if you could recollect what kind of sermons used to be Reverend
Morton's favorite kind of-- what kind of things he would like to talk about
most often when he preached?
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Alfred B.: Well, I remember some good sermons, you know what I mean?
outstanding to me. One of them was as an eagle stirreth her nest. That was
more of a parent teaching their young. You see, he'd go through the process
of how that eagle would make up its nest. And when he got to the place that
he, they'd get tired of feeding him, you know, time for him to be getting
out on his own. Well, they'd push him out of the nest and if he couldn't
make it, they'd swoop down under him and get him and bring him back to
them. Oh, he. He outlined it and made it just as plain as it. That was one
of his sermons. I can remember that. And he used to preach on the prodigal
son. Yeah. And the gang of them. I just can't remember a whole lot.
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Gottlieb: Was he a powerful speaker?
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Alfred B.: Yes, he was. Dianetic [??]. Yeah. He was well loved by
everybody. Gottlieb: That's what I've heard. Alfred B.: Yeah. Yeah. All
walks of people looked up to him.
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Gottlieb: Um, I've heard in connection with some other churches that when
they needed some money for a building fund or something. Uh, a place like
Carnegie would help them out. You know, help them, uh, you know, donate
some money towards their church. Do you know, if there was ever that kind
of relationship between the mill here and the Second Baptist.
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Alfred B.: Well, the mills would give, uh, contributions, but we never did
ask for any. Gottlieb: Uh huh. Alfred B.: He was that kind of a leader. We
just went out on our own.
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Gottlieb: You know, whether there was any-- ever any kind of relationship
between the church and the company.
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Alfred B.: No, not that I know of.
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Gottlieb: Do you know whether or not the church ever had any kind of
special programs to help the people who were coming up from the South in
great numbers? Well, you would have been a young man at the time, but not
not so young you couldn't remember.
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Alfred B.: No, they didn't have no program to go all out for that. No.
No.
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Gottlieb: They never made any particular attempt to get these people into
the church?
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Alfred B.: Well, they didn't have to make no attempt. The way he was, the
leader he was they would come. Well, when the word was like wildfire, what
church can I go to or something like that? Well, we tell them, go to all of
them. Then you say you make your own choice.
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Gottlieb: Um, do you recollect whether many of these people who were
coming up at this period of time were, uh, uh, oriented towards, towards
the church for, uh, religious people? Or did Homestead become a become a
place where there are a lot of people who never paid any attention to
religion?
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Alfred B.: No, I can't say there was a lot of people who never did pay
[telephone rings] any attention to them. Because Homestead is a religious
town [telephone rings]. We have more churches here than any place else that
I know of. Yeah, I know one, one street down there. I guess we have a block
about-- around about, probably eight churches on it.
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Gottlieb: Do you ever remember there being any what they used to call
holiness churches in Homestead?
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Alfred B.: Yeah. That would be one of the tours out the mill there. Yeah.
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Gottlieb: Can you tell me anything about those you know.
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Alfred B.: No. Because I'd very seldom go to them. They kept me busy in my
own. Yeah. But we had them.
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Gottlieb: So was your father a deacon [Alfred B.: Yeah] of the Second
Baptist right from the time it got started.
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Alfred B.: From the start. From the start. Yeah. He would be.
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Gottlieb: What kind of, uh, positions have you had in second-- in the
Second Baptist Church.
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Alfred B.: Well, right after his death, I succeeded him. Gottlieb: Oh, you
did? Alfred B.: Mhm. And I've been the secretary from 37 up to 60. Oh no.
Past 60.
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Gottlieb: Mhm. And are you Deacon now. Alfred B.: Yeah.
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Alfred B.: Then I was a Sunday school teacher as well as, uh, as assistant
superintendent.[tape paused]
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Gottlieb: Did your father ever belong to? Any lodges, fraternal
associations, or anything like that?
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.000
Alfred B.: No, not that I know of.
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Gottlieb: What about yourself? Alfred B.: Oh, yeah. Gottlieb: Which ones?
00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.000
Alfred B.: Masonic.
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Gottlieb: Do they have a fairly large following here in Homestead?
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Alfred B.: Yeah. We have our own own temple down here, right across from
Clark Memorial Church.
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Gottlieb: Do you know how long it's existed in Homestead.
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Alfred B.: That was before I was born too. First they had it over here on
Ann Street. I hear him say. But when I joined him, there was down here.
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Gottlieb: Have you ever belonged to any others besides Masons?
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.000
Alfred B.: No.
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Gottlieb: Have you been very active in, in, in the lodge here?
00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:20.000
Alfred B.: Yep. Gottlieb: Do you have-- Alfred B.: And still am.
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:21.000
Gottlieb: Do you--
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Alfred B.: I'm passed masters. Gottlieb: Oh.
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:51.000
Gottlieb: Well, let me just look over my sheets here. I think I've gotten
about to the end of what I wanted to talk to you about. If you think I've
left out anything that you feel is important about your life or your
father's life, I should ask you this before I, before I turn off the tape
recorder. Did your mother ever have any jobs outside of the house?
00:15:51.000 --> 00:16:09.000
Alfred B.: Yeah. She would go out and do housework. The people that she
did. Not too much, but she went to people, they knew us very well and she
would do a little work for 'em.
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.000
Gottlieb: Was this in Homestead? Alfred B.: Yeah. Gottlieb: She never
went--
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:31.000
Alfred B.: No she'd go to Munhall. To Munhall. But she's-- from Homestead
to Munhall. she never did come. And it was just about 1 or 2 families. And
they kept her busy because most of the time when they go on vacations, they
take her with them. Gottlieb: Is that right? Alfred B.: Yeah. They take her
with them. Yeah.
00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:32.000
Gottlieb: Were these wealthy families.
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:58.000
Alfred B.: Well, they weren't too poor. You know, superintendents of the
Carnegie Steel there, you know. Well, maybe you heard of them. I know you
would know them. The McCrady brothers, you know them? Gottlieb: McCrady?
Alfred B.: Yes, they had McCrady Rogers. I know when they'd go on their
vacations, you know, you know, go up to the what they call cabins or
anything. She'd go along with them.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.000
Gottlieb: Cook their meals for them?
00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:08.000
Alfred B.: Yeah cooking meals for them and everything. Oh, in fact, that
she just supervised, you know. She was well liked, as loved. Yeah.
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:13.000
Gottlieb: Was this a was this steady employment for her? Did she just do
it from time to time?
00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.000
Alfred B.: Well, whenever she felt like it.
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.000
Gottlieb: Didn't that create some kind of hardship around the around the
home?
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:49.000
Alfred B.: No, no. No, no hardship, because my dad always-- whatever she
wanted to do, you know, she'd go. He never would cramp her down and say,
no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. Whenever she felt like she
wanted to go ahead and do it, well, that was for the betterment of the home
too because she's pulling right with him, you know, helping him, which I
think every woman should do. Gottlieb: Yeah.
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.000
Gottlieb: Who looked after the Alfred B. household when she was out
working?
00:17:53.000 --> 00:18:04.000
Alfred B.: Well, she had an uncle there, my father's brother. Then my
grandmother was there too.Then my older sisters, you know.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.000
Gottlieb: They would all help too?
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:12.000
Alfred B.: Yeah. Oh, they better if they were going to stay under his
roof. Gottlieb: Did you have-- Alfred B.: We had no problems at all.
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.000
Gottlieb: Did you have any duties you had to do around the house when you
were a youngster?
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:46.000
Alfred B.: Oh, yeah I had chores. Yeah. Each one of us had chores. See,
some of my brothers, they'd have to help around the tables, do the washing
dishes and everything. My chore was-- in those times you burnt those
kerosene lamps. Well, that was my job, to keep them filled and the chimneys
clean and the wicks trim. That was my job for every day. But come on a
Saturday, I was given the living room to keep clean.
00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:47.000
Gottlieb: You had to keep it clean.
00:18:47.000 --> 00:19:04.000
Alfred B.: Keep it clean. Oh, man. I had that strange time. And I wish I
had kept some of that furniture now, would have been worth something.
Gottieb: Yeah, you bet. Alfred B.: But you know how it is with young people
when they get married. The women want this. Well, you have to satisfy your
wife anyway.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:10.000
Gottlieb: Which of the jobs that you have had in your lifetime gave you
the most satisfaction?
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:23.000
Alfred B.: Well, I tell you the truth. All my jobs I've worked at, I was
very much pleased with it. Every job I've ever had.
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:37.000
Gottlieb: Did anyone in particular give you a sense of [telephone rings]
that you were getting something done? Really a, uh, doing a real necessary
kind of job? A sense of accomplishment?
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:51.000
Alfred B.: No, not that I can say, no. Well, I believe it would have been
much better. I think the wire mill would have been the job that sort of did
that.
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000
Gottlieb: Is there any reason that you didn't go back to that?
00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:06.000
Alfred B.: Well, in the meantime, they moved out from Rankin there and
went to Donora. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Donora, PA. And I think since
they moved up there, I think they'd gone under. Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.:
I'm pretty sure. Gottlieb: Yeah.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.000
Gottlieb: And that was too far away from your home?
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:19.000
Alfred B.: Yeah, for me to travel from Homestead to Donora. And there are
others that had moved there to see it. I think they had dissolved. I'm
pretty sure.
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.000
Gottlieb: Yeah. You don't hear about them?
Alfred B.: No, I don't hear about them too much. No.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:30.000
Gottlieb: Mm. Wasn't there a streetcar that would run along the valley
down to Donora from Homestead?
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:58.000
Alfred B.: No, I can't say that. I don't remember that. There might have
been one, but I can't say. One thing I can say a streetcar. I know it was
one time a streetcar was running from Homestead to New Homestead at that
time along the side the road. But that was-- oh, that's been so far. You
know, all I can remember was the tracks. Yeah.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:11.000
Gottlieb: Well, like I say, if you think I've left anything out that is
important concerning your life or your father's life. Uh, I'd appreciate it
if you'd tell me, but otherwise, I've kind of gotten to the end of my
questions.
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:22.000
Alfred B.: Well, isn't there very much more to say? I know how I was
raised, and I try to live that way.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:33.000
Gottlieb: Uh huh. What, what kind of values do you think were were your
parents trying to give to their children? If you had to, uh, describe
them.
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:39.000
Alfred B.: Well, all in a nutshell. As you wish to be treated, treat your
neighbor.
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.000
Gottlieb: It's the golden rule.
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:50.000
Alfred B.: That's what they, they lived by. That's the best thing I can
tell anybody, if you're not going to hurt yourself, don't hurt your
neighbor.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:54.000
Gottlieb: Did they stress education? Did they think it was.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:30.000
Alfred B.: Yeah, yeah, very much so. They said get your education. Well,
we didn't get an education. It wasn't their fault because they went as far
as they could. You see, the fact that I'd packed had been ready-- he did
want me to go to college, but he was ailing, and I know he couldn't put
that money out. And better for me to stay here and help him because I made
progress. Mhm. Things might have went kind of rough sometimes, but I never
got to the place that I actually had to crawl.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:36.000
Gottlieb: Yeah. Were you ever aware that your father wanted you to do a
particular kind of work?
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.000
Alfred B.: I think he wanted me to go into the ministry.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:45.000
Gottlieb: Uh huh. Do you remember ever having any discussions about that
or having differences with him about it?
00:22:45.000 --> 00:23:34.000
Alfred B.: No, never. But he'd always say, I believe you-- but we would,
we'd get to talking, you know, all of us together. And I'd like I could
bring the scripture out more to him and everything. He'd watched me and my
actions, motions and the speech he would tell my mother I believe he was
called to the ministry. But I believe I was called to teach and instruct. I
don't think I was called to pastor because a teacher, I didn't do good
because I've studied myself. Yeah. They believe they was picked on that.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:39.000
Gottlieb: You always had to go to church.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:24:11.000
Alfred B.: No, they didn't force us to go to church. But the way they
lived and the way they presented it, that you'd be always reaching out,
seeing what you you'd be adventurous and want to see what it was all about.
And in so doing, you grab something for yourself. You could realize what
they wanted to do, but they never did believe in driving nobody because
they did say if you drive, you just do it because we were saying so. And
when you go I want you to go because you want to go. Yeah.
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.000
Gottlieb: Sound like they were very fine people.
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:24.000
Alfred B.: Oh, they were. And the whole length of their lifespan. I never
did hear him call her a liar. I never did hear her call him a liar.
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.000
Gottlieb: Do you think they got on well together?
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:32.000
Alfred B.: None of these kids could say that we ever heard them spatting.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:33.000
Gottlieb: There was something.
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:36.000
Alfred B.: He was 68. She was 84.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:44.000
Gottlieb: Oh, is that right? Did any of your brothers or sisters ever
leave Homestead, go live someplace else?
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:51.000
Alfred B.: Yeah. My sister, she went up to Creighton. You know, that's
right across the river there from New Kensington.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000
Gottlieb: And she's the only one who ever moved out of home.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.000
Alfred B.: No. Out of Homestead? Gottlieb: Yeah. Alfred B.: Yeah. Shew as
the only one who ever left Homestead and...
00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:59.000
Gottlieb: And all the rest of you stayed around.
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:21.000
Alfred B.: Stayed right around Homestead. Yeah. Gottlieb: So your-- Alfred
B.: Of course I had one brother. He, he was a roamer. He just kept going.
But mostly all of them just stayed around Homestead. But he would always
returned back, though. All the rest of us stayed within Homestead.
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.000
Gottlieb: Um.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.000
Alfred B.: That's so far as living, you know. Gottlieb: Right. Alfred B.:
Yeah.
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000
Gottlieb: Well, thank you very much.
00:25:29.000 --> 00:26:29.000
Alfred B.: Well I hope you've got something that'll do you some good.
[tape ends]
