WEBVTT
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Leroy Patrick: --feeling that with Mr. Tabor's advice, the board had
decided to live within their means, regardless of whether we serve the
people or. And money just is not that valuable to me.
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Speaker2: Well, don't worry. I had to bring this back to my memory because
I'd forgotten what was written here. But I'm like Dr. Washburne. I can, I
can, I can't, no, I didn't see anything in here. It mentioned something
about some personal, direct and impersonal-- direct and indirect personal
attacks.
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Speaker1: Oh, well, I've had those, too.
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Speaker3: Would you like to read it to us? All of us who didn't read it.
Speaker2: Do you want me to read it? [audio cuts]
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Leroy Patrick: --tipping point beyond which if you go the number Blacks
get that the community goes Black. Parts of East Liberty are still White
and parts of East Liberty are still Black. I live in on Mayflower Street.
There, there are, it's this, this section is largely Italian. My street
over the time that, that I've lived there has become-- there were maybe six
of us there when I moved in, has become now fully Black, except for two
families who remain. But there are still pockets of Whites as there are
pockets of Blacks scattered around all over East Liberty. Now, Homewood
would not be considered anything except a ghetto. Uh, Penn Hills. At least
the lower part of Penn Hills is still integrated. Now, I'm some of my
members who live out there tell me that they see more and more signs-- for
sale signs going up. So I suppose when the decade of the 70s are out that
O'Malley's words will be true, that it's going Black. If the mortgage money
remains as hard to get, I suspect that it will be somewhat longer, too for,
for, for Whites to flee. There are sections of what? Monroeville that's
integrated, a good number of Blacks that moved out there in recent years.
And that wouldn't be considered-- it would be considered an integrated
community . Speaker2: Highland Park. Patrick: Highland Park, Yeah.
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Speaker2: The question I have is-- it keeps coming up as far as
geographical boundaries. What is your boundary line of the Homewood area?
Because we were trying, you know, when you start talking about Homewood,
then you get into Point Breeze and you're getting into Squirrel Hill. What
are--
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Patrick: Well, I know--
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Patrick: According to the census tract, Homewood takes in-- What? Thomas-
McPherson Boulevard, that area. And Thomas is now pretty well Black. Uh.
Certainly it does-- it would not go to Penn Avenue. I suppose you'd say
from Thomas on, on down beyond the railroad tracks and on, on out would be
would be Homewood. Generally, Washington Boulevard is thought as a dividing
line. But here again, part of East Liberty. Ward 12, which is Liberty Ward,
is in is beyond Washington Boulevard. So that there is a there is a living
line. And then there are the, there are the-- Speaker2: I'm talking about
the living line. Not the, the-- Patrick: Well, the living line, I would
say, would be Thomas Boulevard on back up as far as the Penn Hills line,
Lincoln Avenue. Uh, on back to-- one side of the Lincoln Avenue would be
considering East Liberty. But-- and according to the census track, both
sides are East Liberty, but livingly, Lincoln Avenue would be the dividing
line there. Uh, Upland Street on the other side. Unidentified Speaker: What
more do you feel that the realtors, plus the religious leaders ______ in
keeping Pittsburgh a predominately ethnic city? ____________________ it's
all or going __________.
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Patrick: Well, the realtors. Oh, I think the realtors are the culprits. I
don't think the religious leaders have much to do with it. Yeah, the
realtors are the, the culprits here. We've had the fair housing law of the
city, one of the first city in the nation to have maybe the second to have
a fair housing law. But my friends who knew realtors would tell me the ways
that they would get around showing Blacks White dwellings and they still do
this, you recall or maybe you don't recall, but Milo Manley told me Milo
used to be with the State Human Relations Commission, that friends of his
in Pittsburgh-- in Philadelphia, he lived in Philadelphia. A friend of his
took him once into a bank, and they had a large map of the city on the wall
and said, now don't repeat this, but this section we have marked out as the
next section in which we will allow Blacks to move. And the realtors know
this. This section will not be open to them. Now, when they get into this
section, the houses are already old, of course, because they don't move
until the houses are old. But I'm saying it's that kind of, of uh, oh, in
house realtor wise in house device that they use to keep us out.
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Patrick: And unless a Black is very persistent, as you well know, he
simply will be discouraged and, and not, and not get the house that he
wants. Now, if he is persistent, he will get it. But that takes a lot of
doing. And many Blacks says, what the hell, I don't want to be bothered
with that. So now I don't think the religious leaders-- well, it may be I
shouldn't say that because mother of good counsel, which is about four
blocks up the street from the-- it's now in a Black community , when the
community was going Black in the late 50s, the priest did go. His
parishioners were living around there. I am told, he didn't tell me, but
I'm told by one of the parishioners that the priest went from house to
house telling them, now let's keep this thing, let's keep the Blacks out
because we don't want them in here. So let's not sell our houses. Of
course, over the course of time he failed, but he apparently was successful
for a while. So it may well be that some of them are like that. And I
presume O'Malley would know since he gets a chance to talk to them.
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Speaker2: What about Holy Rosary? Holy Rosary did the same
__________________ did they go for it faster or slower than [??]
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Patrick: Holy Rosary is still a-- supported largely by its White
parishioners who come into the community out of allegiance to that parish.
They have Black parishioners and their school is totally Black. They-- the
Roman Catholic Church has a, a pull on its membership that the Protestant
church does not have. We can move from one Protestant church to another,
and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the form of worship. May
be slightly different, but not really different. But it's apparently the,
the ethnic parishes among the Roman Catholics have a real pull upon their
membership. So though they do not have enough coming into the parish now to
support it and the and the way in which it once was supported and the using
some of their endowment monies because they spend a lot of money on on
their school to keep that school going. Uh, as we learned when they came to
Pace to get some money for some special things that were doing there. It
went much more slowly and it is still a viable white congregation with some
black membership. Of course, any black many, most blacks are not Roman
Catholics anyway. If you leave Louisiana and some of those southern states,
most blacks are. Protestant and Baptists.
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Speaker5: Would you talk about the politics, briefly?
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Patrick: Yes. [laughter] I just finished chairing Tom Harper's Citizen's
Committee. Tom is re-elected to the Court of Common Pleas, as you may
remember. I chaired his committee when he was running as as Recorder of
Deeds when Pearce beat him. Pearce never has gotten over the fact that
having beaten Harper out for that $20,000 a year job, Harper was appointed
to a $40,000 a year job. [laughter] I say he got it because-- I meant we
had a cocktail party for Tom a couple of weeks before the election, and
Pearce was there and I was talking to Pearce. You know, we were kidding. He
might do this thing again. And I heard this man's voices really apparently
made an impression on him. Uh, um. Well, I have been interested in politics
because I think most Blacks, if they're going to be relevant, have to have
to be interested in politics, at least the minister, just to try to get a
handle on what's happening to his people. As I said, back in Delaware
County, I was when I came here, I was-- during the 50s, we had what was
called the DUA Democrats for United Action. I believe, something like that.
Anyway, it was a group of us who were meeting together and trying to
promote Black candidates. And in the mid 60s, I think it was 66, a group of
us organized what we call the Pennsylvania Black-- no it was the
Pennsylvania Negro Democratic Committee. It must have been 65, 66. It
became the Black Democratic Committee in about 69. We organized this
Democratic-- Pennsylvania Democratic-- Black Democratic Committee to try to
get some input into at the state level, because we don't have anything.
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Patrick: We didn't then we have something additional now. But then we
didn't have very much at the state level. We-- I recall the convening
letter went out over, over my signature. And a group of us met in
Harrisburg and we said we were not. We wanted to do one thing only, namely
to get some Blacks into state positions of importance. That first time
around, we, we, well we wanted to try to get the State Committee-- to try
to get an audience with the State Committee to have the State Committee
slate a Black for lieutenant governor. And I wrote the State Committee
chairman and he sent word back. He did not have time to meet with me and
that made me angry. So I determined we would have a sit in in his office.
And this was just before the primary in 60, 66. And I got the letters all
ready to go out, calling my people together from all across the state. We
got to sit in in the headquarters, you know, that'll make a nice television
story. Black sitting in the Democratic headquarters and all that. Well, I
didn't follow-- didn't get follow through with it because some of my
friends said, no, Pat, that's not the thing to do. We, we'll, we'll work
it. And I learned later that they'd gotten to the fifth floor of City Hall,
city-county building.
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Patrick: Joe Barr was then the mayor who'd gotten to Washington. Dave,
Dave Lawrence was then in Washington-- White House who got to the state
chairman. At least I got a telegraph, telegram. I'll meet with you tomorrow
morning. Well, tomorrow morning, I just couldn't go. I don't know what I
had. I might have had a funeral that I had that day. I don't know. But I
couldn't go. Anyway, we didn't get the ordinance and we didn't get the
lieutenant governorship. And then we had we went out supporting the the the
gubernatorial candidates. We were determined that we couldn't really take
sides in the primary because I was for Casey and the Philadelphia group was
for Jack. He ran in 60 and he ran in 66. And we got together and raised
some money. That is, we contributed money. We and we presented Jack with a
check for $1,000. And that's not on much money, but $100 is a lot of money
to me because I'm just a poor preacher trying to make it, you know? And
when you get us together and we collected $1,000 and we had Shapp and took
a picture of us giving, giving this check to him. I learned later that this
was the only group which had given given Shapp any money, only Black group.
All the others were. It's all. And I told Shapp, you know, it's alleged
that you do have money and it is said that he has some money of his own.
But we want you to know that we are serious.
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Patrick: If you win, we're going to be knocking on your door. This is
after the primary and general election is running against who was at the
Schaefer? Uh, I think well, at any rate, we didn't we didn't win, but we
managed to keep the group together. And that takes some doing to keep group
together when you have no, no, no winners. Well, we kept meeting
sporadically. You can't meet regularly because all of us are busy people.
Then at the next gubernatorial election, we met. We again and you recall
again it was Shapp versus Casey. And again, I was up for Casey. I don't
know why I wanted to back a loser, but, uh, and the Philadelphia group was
out for Schapp. Uh, and after the primary, when Shapp had won again, we
again presented him with some money, again out of our pockets because we
had no, had, we had no fundraising events that raised any, any substance of
money. And then Shapp won this time. Well, Shapp in winning helped both
himself and us because the next meeting I called, I was elected chairman
because I lead the group. I was not being coy and not being coy that really
at this point in my life, I had no political ambition at my age. But, but
others are younger in the group. And so I was sort of neutral person.
That's why I guess they retained me as chairman and, you know. Speaker2:
Also you speak very well. Patrick: So we got to chat and we said we wanted
three cabinet positions.
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Patrick: Well, we didn't get three, but we got two, you know, Dolores.
Secretary Dolores Tucker, Secretary of the Commonwealth and Stella's
secretary of Health. We wanted really a-- the secretary of community
affairs, because here's where some money is. You know, somebody can do
things in the community . And we brought a man in from Howard, whose name
escapes me at the moment, who-- because we were trying to get, you know,
top flight people. We want to recommend somebody to the governor. He's got
to be somebody who can pass muster and not just recommend Joe Blow. And I
recall going to Harrisburg and interviewing this, this person and he was
interested and then talking to Shapp about it. But apparently Shapp had
made some deal in Philadelphia. So the present man has that, you know, the
secretary of community affairs. But you know-- Wilcox yeah Wilcox who has
been a good man that is. So we got that we got the two deputies then we
said now we hadn't had a meeting. We had a meeting in the airport in
Philadelphia, one of the motor hotels there right after the election. The
executive meeting got together and we looked over all of the boards and
commissions to see where they were vacancies when they were going to occur
because we had done our homework beforehand. We said, now we want to get
this deputy, we want to get somebody on this commission.
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Patrick: We want a bureau chief over here. Et cetera. Et cetera. And we
had this kind of thing done beforehand. So when we went to Shapp and talked
to him, he was quite agreeable because he felt he'd been, in Philadelphia,
quite a fair minded person. He-- his secretary was Black way back then when
it wasn't, it wasn't-- he's currently his personal secretary, when it
wasn't the thing for a White executive to have a Black secretary, he's had
this Black woman as his secretary. So he was he was not a difficult person
to deal with. You see, he was sympathetic and has remained that way, except
that he's got the squeeze on the political processes and squeezes on him
now, as you well know. So we were able to get-- so I think we have five
deputies now and we have a number of bureau chiefs now. What's the problem
is that you never-- when you get a person job, you make one friend and you
make five enemies because you think you should have the job. You think you
should have had it and you think you should have it. And why did he get it?
Well, so in that way it has been both good and bad. But that's. that's, I
think, always is the case. Well, now, uh, the, the, the Black Democratic
Committee then has, has kept a low profile. We haven't been able we have
not tried to be a grass roots organization in the sense that we wanted a
lot of people.
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Patrick: That's for the-- well, I went out to Gary in 70, 71, two years
ago in the next meeting is in Hot Springs, Arkansas, when the National
Black Political Convention was held out there, which was a massive thing,
what some 8000 people in which the the nationalists had done their work and
they came and and manipulated the, the convention and got their resolutions
through so that today Baraka Imamu Baraka is the secretary general of the
of the organization and they are-- well, they continue to meet. They met
here in Pittsburgh just this past fall. But that's a mass organization now.
And the mass organization we set up what's called the Allegheny County
Black Political Convention, where, again, I was asked to be chairman and we
held a convention this past year, 73 and the first convention in 72, the--
at which time we we tried to bring in the whole county. And this last time
we tried bringing in the Western Pennsylvania, the whole west part of the
state. The, the value of it I see is it's a step in helping Blacks to begin
to realize what our potential is. The, the Blacks have meant the difference
between winning and losing for the Democratic Party in Pittsburgh and in
Allegheny County for all these many years. But we have very little to show
for it. Very little. They don't-- we don't get anything out of the party. I
said, Tom has just been elected judge. When, when that bill was up to, to
create the judgeships. 25 in Philadelphia--
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Patrick: Or 8 in Allegheny County. We went to Shapp. When the bill was--
before the bill was passed we said, we want two of these spots, two of the
eight of Allegheny County for Blacks. And we agree so that when the bill
was passed and the Black was appointed, Tom was appointed to this spot.
Our-- I don't say I appointed Tom because I didn't, but at least I had some
input. And similarly, this past year, when Livingston Johnson was appointed
to this judgeship. But a judgeship is a prestigious thing and it has
symbolic value. But in terms of, of its, of its ability to get things done
in the community, we we simply haven't had those kinds of offices in, well,
anywhere in Allegheny County or in the state. Now we wanted these key
persons in the state because we, we've known that a bureau director or a
deputy can do many things which would slip by us who are on the outside. If
you don't pay attention to what's happening in the, in the bureau, these
things which, which will-- our boards our commissions, things which will be
of value to Blacks simply don't get done. And that's why we wanted key
persons in these spots and things that have been happening there and those
places which have not happened previously. Now in Allegheny County, we have
this political organization then called the ACBPO, and as the chairman in
this past primary, for example, in the city, I called together those seven
Blacks who were running for councilman.
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Patrick: You know, we have five vacancies in council this year and there
were seven Blacks who filed to run for city council. So I called them
together in my church and said, now listen, we know all of you can't be
elected because only five spots so that two persons are certainly not going
to be elected. You know also that some very strong people are running. You
have you have Amy Ballenger, you have Lynch, you have these other folks are
running. Why can't we withdraw? And let us say, let's, let's just two
remain in the race. Not everybody just two you know, we spent two and a
half hours. George Shields was there and we came out one person only-- with
one person only willing to withdraw. That was Tim Stevens. He did withdraw.
Um, the other persons said, I know I can win. I know I can win. The little
fella here in the law school. In the Pitt law school, what's his name? He's
a second year student in the law school. I've forgotten his name. Now, a
little fella who was quite sure he was going to win because he had the
student power behind him. Uh, Anderson was sure he was going to win because
he had been the leader in the streetcar strike here two years ago when the
Angela Davis thing was much in the news, you remember. And the Blacks had
been wearing this Angela Davis button and they put him off [Speaker2: Oh
yes I remember]
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Patrick: And then and then there was a fracas around that. Bill Anderson
was the leadership in that. It was one of the leaders and I met him then
and talked with him and helped him out there. He said, I know I can do it
because the people know that I'm for integrity and everybody knew why he
was there. Well, as you know, all of them lost. Speaker5: Who were the two
you met? Patrick: Huh? Speaker5: Who were the two that you proposed to run?
Patrick: Oh, Shields and Jackson. Shields because he was committed-- he was
by the party. He was endorsed by the party. And Jackson had drawn the first
place on the-- in the ballot. You know, the number one spot, which I'm told
is always good for 10,000 votes. People go out and vote and they don't want
to vote for anybody else. So we've gone to back, back those two. Well, it
just happens that Jackson lost and Lacina came up from behind and overtook
Shields and that 16,000 votes that those other Blacks pulled out, I think a
good number of them might have gone to Shields and Shields might have
been-- might have won. So that today, Shields would go out of office. At
the end of this month, we'll have one Black on city council who is the
president. [Speaker5 speaks] And that's, that's the, that's the scuttlebutt
that he'll go out as president when they reorganize in January. So I can't
say that we've had very much success in politics, but it's been an
interesting, interesting thing. Interesting thing.
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Speaker2: The president of the Council becomes mayor. ___________________
The president of the Council becomes [Patrick: Yeah] acting mayor.
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Patrick: That's, that's, that's the reason that's being spoken. Speaker5:
That's why he's going to be [??] Patrick: Yeah, that's why it's going to
put him out because if he does leave and he gets out of the mayor's office
and the president of City Council becomes the mayor. Speaker5: That's why--
Patrick: And Pittsburgh is not ready for a Black mayor yet. I don't know.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Speaker6: It's not ready for Lou Mason. Speaker7: It's not ready for Lou
Mason. Patrick: Well, maybe you're right. Maybe. Maybe.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:11.000
Speaker6: I think there are better Black leaders. That there could be
better Black leaders than--
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Patrick: Well, yes, I, I-- Speaker5: Well, I don't know.
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Speaker6: What are your reasons? Speaker5: We had the [??] who was mayor.
Patrick: huh? Speaker5: He learned everything he had ____________ just
like Mason could learn learn too.
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Speaker3: Well. Trouble is, we will take much more incompetence out of
Whites than we will out of Blacks. No. You want to lift a Black up?
Everybody knows why he shouldn't be the person. You know, I've been in. I
was there when Pat Fagan was the president of the Council, and Pat Fagan,
the president of City Council? And before before Pat, the other fellow.
Good Lord, he couldn't even read. I mean, I was sitting at an ACCR dinner
with that man and they had written a speech for him in type that, that
large because he had bad eyesight and he couldn't even read that. So we--
Speaker6: Yeah. You're right. Patrick: But now it--
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Speaker5: I want to go back. Patrick: Yeah. Speaker5: I really find it,
kind of shocking your discussion of Pittsburgh as a southern town and then
the illustrations that you gave of the swimming pool incident. And I do
recall also that one of the interviews, there were some similar discussions
that many areas of the city particularly Squirrel Hill Closed until maybe
58. There is also this interview with Dick Jones who talked about the-- how
late it was before Black teachers were hired. Patrick: 38. Wasn't it? 38?
Speaker5: 38. Yes. Before they hired any Black teachers. How do you-- how
do you account for that slowness of development of-- opening of the city.
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Patrick: I think it's partly due to the fact that we, we have not had an
influx of new Black blood since, what, the First World War, or maybe part
of the Second World War. But when we came in, we came in to work in the
mills and the the old Pittsburghers, I just think were thoroughly
intimidated. This was, you know, if you work for the Olivers, you really
had a splendid job, though. You were you were the man's chauffeur. But you
were, you were, you were something else. If you worked for, for any-- you
lived over the garage and you were-- you had a steady job. So I-- in my, my
experience with the old-- with the indigenous Pittsburghers is that there
was not a lot of initiative there. They seemed to have borne up under the
system and didn't, didn't feel that the system could be challenged and they
were not the influx of new Blacks to challenge it. Those who came in, as I
said, were were not of that-- what, equipment? intellectual equipment and
so on. And since Pittsburgh had no free school, just community colleges,
you you really couldn't get a-- you couldn't get an education here. This
was a not only discriminatory in its policies, but it was expensive.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:29:58.000
Patrick: And so that we didn't have Blacks who could go to school here.
And the Blacks who went to school didn't come back here. So I think it was
just that there were, there was, there was just this dearth of that,
whatever it is, to start a movement or a revolution. That kind of that
person wasn't around. And then, of course, you have the-- what is it? We
have 27 or 127 ethnics in this area who have their own insecurities, which
makes it terribly difficult for them to, to accept. They've got to be 101%
white in order to show that they are American. So I think, I think those
were factors in keeping us backward for such a long, long time. If you look
at the leadership today, I think you'll discover that much of it is come in
within the past-- oh, 10, 15 years. The others have not given up on
leadership. Speaker2: The key is education. Patrick: Oh, absolutely. You
got to have education. You just have to have that. And if you don't, these
indigenous movements, the maximum feasible participation, says the OEO
broker. But you have to have somebody there who can think the thing through
and know where we move next.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Speaker2: Do you think that Joe Rhodes is still-- responsible to
Pittsburgh and his congressional district. Because I heard of a couple of
ways to go up in Chadwick And he was going on about his-- that bail, bill,
the schoolboarding bill that he was talking about it and-- Patrick: Yeah.
Speaker2: That-- it went into the budget.
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:35.000
Speaker2: That was-- that had nothing really to do with him. But, uh, this
whole fail thing just really frightens me. I just can't sit. I'm just
wondering how-- is it possible?
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:36.000
Patrick: You don't agree with it-- you. You do not agree with it?
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.000
Speaker2: I don't agree with that bill.
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Patrick: Oh, no. Well, I disagree with you. I think that that bail system
is one of the most heinous--
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:47.000
Speaker2: I can see reforms in it but not in no bail system.
00:30:47.000 --> 00:32:38.000
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. That, that is-- he has a pulse of the community when
he sponsors a bill like that. The bail system has worked havoc on the Black
community. The average person-- simply has to go to the bail bondsman. And
you know what that costs. And he doesn't have the money. So he's caught up
in that kind of, of non-justice process. So I think Joe has-- Joe is one of
the I think one of the coming lights if he keeps a level head he's gotten--
he's a bright young sucker. I heard him Saturday night on the New
Kensington. We were there for a law awards. The Kensington branch of the
NAACP. The Allegheny Kiski branch was sponsoring this award to the Black
policeman in Kensington Lower Borough. Those old boys out there. And Joe
was our speaker. He did a very, very good job on a difficult subject,
because what can you say about policemen, as he said, What can you say
about policemen today? And then Black policemen who are on the firing line
and must be responsible to the Black community and yet must be policemen
out here. And he did a very, very good job, said I have I didn't support
Joe, but I'm going to support him the next time. I didn't support him
because I was a friend of Harold Davis. And I told Harold I would support
you, Harold. And when Joe came to me and said, I want your support, I said,
No, I can't give it because, you know, Harold's my buddy. Both of us have
been president of the Renewal Council together, and I just couldn't turn my
back on my buddy, so I didn't support him. But I really admired the young
fella and think he's doing a good job.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:59.000
Speaker8: What about the-- the perhaps not the emergence. The emphasis of
Black culture in the city. Do you see this? I think we're seeing this
somewhat, especially in White ethnic groups. But, but I'm sure this is even
more so when it comes--
00:32:59.000 --> 00:34:44.000
Patrick: Well, I think that's been the best thing which has happened in
the Black community since Dubois. There is this emphasis upon Blackness in
itself as being a thing of which you need not be ashamed. For too long our
Blacks have been ashamed of being Blacks, and we thought that if we could
become semi-White then we would be accepted by whites. And we now know that
that's not true. And we know that being Black is, is uh, is just as good as
being White. Now, we may, maybe take it to the extreme. I don't think it's
better than being White. I think Black is beautiful, but White is
beautiful. Yellow is beautiful. You know, so that I think once we get over
that, that particular emphasis that if you're Black, that everything is is
all right, and because you're Black, then you can excuse everything. I
don't think you can excuse Incompetence in any public official or any other
one else because the person is Black. But I think the emphasis upon Black
culture that is reading the Black literature. You know, I was in high
school when I discovered I'm from slavery and I was-- it's not much, but
for me, it was a it was a sort of eye opener because I went from there to
look at other things. I think I read some of Herskovits things and some
other things and and our kids then who will wear their fro and be proud of
it. I admit those plaques are something else. But, [laughter] but I think
we'll get all those plaques even.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:35:21.000
Speaker8: But what about what about Pittsburgh specifically? Would-- Is
there do you see an emphasis on on Black people in the city of Pittsburgh
trying to find out what their role has been, what their history has been?
For instance, when you were talking about Uh, education. I wonder how many
Blacks, uh, in in the city of Pittsburgh know that that one of the oldest
Black colleges-- One of the first Black colleges every established in
Pennsylvania, was established on the north side of Avery Street and things
like this. Speaker9: Can you say some more about that Joe? I didn't know
about that either.
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:22.000
Patrick: Avery Institute.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Speaker8: Yeah, right. Patrick: Yeah.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:36:03.000
Patrick: Well, I'm sure that that's that's been lost to us, except for
the, the, those members who are in the historical society. There is not,
there is not a-- maybe Avery never made enough of a splash to have made a
name for itself in the, in the Black community. Blacks were depressed for
such a long time in Pittsburgh that um, much of its, its contribution, much
of the Black contribution to Pittsburgh is not known to us.
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:13.000
Speaker8: But you don't see a-- Annapolis is coming back on this. You
don't see anyone that's really attempting to look in.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:31.000
Patrick: Well, there's the, there's the what? The the, the, the historical
society, the Black one. Walter Worthington's group that that tries to do
this but without any funds to put out publications what-- it can't do but
so much.
00:36:31.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Speaker5: One thing that you could refer to-- we interviewed recently
Selma, Dr. Selma Burke. Patrick: Yeah. Speaker5: Who is attempting to
provide with the Selma Burke Center a place for artists, which I think has
a certain prominence to it. She also talked at great length about the H. O.
Tanner stamp that she designed and Tanner himself was a Pittsburgher and he
in fact was not really known too much. Uh, there's at present time-- I
understand that the university is planning to have one of the rooms here to
be an Afro-American nationality room-- in the cathedral. And I know that
Maxine Bruhns has been meeting with a number of, of individuals around
putting that together. I think that there is a growing interest in this
subject. Ron, I interviewed this past week, Reverend [??]. This was really
a quite interesting interview too about the history of Western PA and the
Church. Do you want to say something about that?
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Speaker10: _______________ went to this university and we were going
through a _____________ the war. She was doing the, uh, research into their
history and the Pittsburgh area. Even dating back to the 1845 [??]. And,
boy have they had in Pittsburgh extensiving landhoarding, which on today's
market worth millions of dollars. So there is an effort going forth to go
into that background and the contribution that Blacks of African made. Then
again, getting back to what you said. They have seen so very little from
the establishment.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:39:23.000
Patrick: Yeah, if they could publish some of this stuff. I look at the
Richard King Mellon Foundation annual report from a couple of months ago.
We're looking at about some $7 million last year, And I try to check and
see how much money is going into Black. If I put in Action Housing, I think
I counted up $375,000 out of 7 million. You know ____________. But other
things were tapped out over here, and something over there and so on and so
on-- school in New England. But they give their society some money.
Somebody who could spend some full time on research, then give them money
to publish the research. We'd get somewhere with that.
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:32.000
Speaker9: What about the renaissance? That, the Allegheny County-- in
their expansion into social involvement. Were you involved with any of
that.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:40:11.000
Patrick: Only peripherally. Only peripherally. They talked a good job and
they put a little money into some of the businesses. They put enough in
for-- to ensure failure, but never enough to ensure success. By ensuring
success, I mean, not only giving them-- letting them, giving them enough
money to start a business, but giving enough money to get a good inventory
and then to keep it going for six months or 18 months while you try to get
a business together. And to my knowledge, they've never done that. They've
put 18,000 here and maybe 50,000 over there enough to ensure failure.
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:26.000
Speaker2: It's not a true commitment. It's not a true commitment is what
you're saying. No, I'm sure that what you're saying is true. I felt that.
He's laughing. I'm the biggest establishment person in the class.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:41:21.000
Speaker5: What are the possibilities of better communication between the
Black community and other ethnic communities? You mentioned the fact that
this 101% Whiteness to be in America is a problem. Are there any possible
breakthroughs in that areas in which there might be some cooperative
relationships? I noticed, for example, that Black leaders recently
entertained. Wallace of Tuskegee. And then this has been mentioned by the
Black Political Caucus. Pragmatism would be the policy we follow. If it is
true to some extent that Blacks represent an important swing possibility.
Would this not be worth pursuing some ways in which there could be liaisons
established?
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:22.000
Speaker11: My grandson said he was the only one that could beat Pete.
[laughter]
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:34.000
Speaker12: That was last year. He's not doing well enough this year. I'm
just being facetious.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:43:38.000
Patrick: I don't know, Larry. I-- on the political level, you could get
some conversations like that. For example, in the, in the 12th Ward where I
live, we've always had an-- oh, I was pretty good friends of Chippy Stout,
the Ward leader, and the other people out there. At the political level,
these politicians are kind of realistic. If you could bring in the votes,
you, you can talk and deal. Now, you have to watch them because everybody
in politics is out to get you. You know, you're out to get him to. But if
you leave that level, I suppose the only ethnics are the Jews. That, that,
that I have met in all of my goings around town. The bulk of them are--
whether it be in education, because for years I chaired the NAACP Education
Committee before the establishment co-opted me and put me on the board.
Then, uh, but and the Jews were the first person with an interest in this
Allegheny County Council on Civil Rights that, uh, that I chaired at one
time. Here again, the, the, well, the Jewish Community Relations Council
was-- gave a staff time for, for this. And the persons who headed the
committees were Jewish men or women. Now, I haven't seen that kind of
openness on the part of the Polish community or the Italian community,
except that the-- at the political level and I just don't know if if they
are yet sufficiently sophisticated and feel that they have enough control
of their own destiny to to be willing to, to do this. To share this this
kind of conversation with us is how best we can promote the interests of
Pittsburgh. It may be there. It's just that I haven't run into it.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:44.000
Speaker5: Do you find you say something about how Pete has been into.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:45:24.000
Patrick: Pete has been a disappointment to me. I was-- we had a political
rally in my church when he was running for council, the first time I first
met him. It was way back there when, um, oh, Warren Watson was first
running, running at that time. And I liked the guy. You know, he has a sort
of freshness about him and an appeal that that he had. And then he became
mayor. And he has-- he has suffered a personality reversal or else a
personality has come out that wasn't apparent before. So he, in these days
have been able to polarize the communitiy. The crowning blow to me, I was
willing to go along with him when he was reducing the payrolls because I
know we have-- every political organization has more payrolls than they
need, but got to keep these people on the payroll so they get the votes for
you when you go out. But I could go along with that. But when he came
before the school board last winter to speak against busing, when in all--
and I've been on there for what, four years now? None of the other problems
facing us ever has he come to talk to us, either in public or in private,
on how I can help you with these problems? But to take this time to come
and play to the galleries the way he did, I think makes him anathema for
the growth of this city. And God help us if he should be able to win the
governorship. I'd say you go down to number 49--
00:45:24.000 --> 00:46:24.000
Patrick: Among the 50 states, I guess Mississippi will always be ahead of
us. But Pete has, Pete has has flubbed what I think was a splendid chance
to brought a new image and a new condition to the city because we were all
tired of the war of the of the bossism of Lawrence and then of Gobar [ph].
Gobar [ph] was less flagrant in manifestations of it than was Lawrence.
Pete had an opportunity, I think, to pull this city together and to move it
ahead in bringing new industry in and pulling the business tax into the
industrial--
