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Michael Snow: This is tape two of a state and local government archives
interview with Reverend Dr. James Robinson. You were talking about
Brotherhood Church before the tape stopped.
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James Robinson: Why would we want to come here, join a church that all
these years? Everybody made us welcome. So anyway, I ended up coming to
Bidwell Church. The first three years were rough. Snow: Were they?
Robinson: Oh. I thought I made a mistake coming. There was no place
to--There's a lot of things that went on I can't get into all-- I can't
really tell you all the things that happened. Where we were going to
live--I couldn't live in a manse. It was not much of a manse, uh, where my
kid was going to go to school. We had no place to live for a while. I was
living way over across town and riding back. And the first three years were
rough at Bidwell. And I took it out on the congregation. Snow: Did you?
Robinson: Yeah. I really thought I made a big mistake. And I thought
really, in retrospect, I really thought I was too good to be at that place.
Really looked down on the people, really did. Thought I had the status.
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Unidentified Speaker: Miss Dennis [ph] would you please call extension
zero? Miss Dennis extension zero.
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Robinson: But that's the way it was. First years at Bidwell.
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Snow: Then what was Manchester like in those years [unintelligible]--
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Robinson: [simultaneous talking] Manchester then--Manchester then
was--they had a fairly large, I would imagine, close to 30% white
population then. Uh, the China Wall down there had been put up just before
I got here.
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Snow: And by that you're referring to Ohio River wall?
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Robinson: Yeah, that big wall that goes--splits Manchester from the other
side. On the other side over there, near goes to Woods Run. Woods Run, I
guess at one time was--I just saw the remains of it when I got here. There
were, you know, the bank and--Manchester one time was a fairly well
developed neighborhood. But it was split. And try to be rezoned. That's
another chapter. But the China Wall was up when I got here. That wall was
up when I got here. They had made a decision. And--Kind of lost track of
what I was thinking.
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Snow: I was asking about, what Manchester was like as a neighbourhood.
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Robinson: Yeah. It was not organized. Uh, they tried to change Manchester
from a residential area to a commercial area. That's when I began to learn
community organization. By then, a--a young man then--uh-- I got to know
the neighborhood and real quick, the Bidwell Cultural and Training Center
was formed and I was president. Uh. John Long left the Manchester
Presbyterian Church, which was one of those churches that lost all of its
members because of the changing neighborhood--was shut down. They left and
John came from there and came to the staff of Bidwell. And what he brought
was a lot of Saul Alinsky organizational skills with him. I don't know if
you're familiar with Saul Alinsky. He brought all that with him. I learned
a lot from him. Then Father Jack O'Malley moved down at Saint Joe's Church.
He's another rebel. Right down the street. Then a fellow named Bill
Johnson, who was a streetwalker hired by the presbytery, was under the
staff. Then another fellow named Hal Robinson came on the staff because
there was so much going on. They sponsored all these people and paid for
their salaries and they were all on the staff of Bidwell Church. Snow: Oh,
were they? Robinson: Yes, we were all there. All crazy. All there together.
John was probably responsible for everybody. For as much as anything that
happened in keeping the area rezoning. Haughton Elevator tried to move it--
No. First of all, Otto Milk tried to set up a freezing establishment. Now,
remember, there were bars all up and down Pennsylvania. There were some
commercial areas. Uh. No new housing. A lot of split housing where
landlords simply left it to urban redevelopment because they weren't going
to allow anybody to tell them how to run their business. They just split
the houses up and try to get as much money as they could, move as many
families into these big mansions. So Otto Milk tried to move a freezing
plant up on the corner of Fulton and Pennsylvania. And when they try to do
it, that's what started it. We stopped them by simply demonstrating and
putting our bodies--
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Unidentified Speaker: Miss Dennis, would you please call extension zero?
Miss Dennis, extension zero.
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Robinson: In front
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Robinson: Of the--of the
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Robinson: Places, the bulldozers that try to come in and start digging.
The same thing happened when Crow tried to move where the Bidwell high rise
is. They try to move a galvanizing rubber plant and they were moving from
down the street, which was down by the China wall there--they try to--and
it wasn't--anyway. But John Long, when they tried to dig, jumped in a
bulldozer. And when people saw the intensity of it all, then urban
redevelopment said this has got to stop. Somebody's going to get killed.
Snow: Did they? Robinson: But he stopped it dead. And then I got into a big
fight with the guy driving the bulldozer. But then we began to organize.
The organization started. That's when I started learning how to really be a
community organizer. I learned quick.
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Snow: So it wasn't as if Bidwell Church and the other people of the
neighborhood had been trying to fight in zoning hearings before this. It
was--
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Robinson: John Long came and started a lot of that. Snow: Wow. Robinson:
He started and he's still alive and he's in another part of the--we became
good friends. He moved in here. His wife was a Filipino who was
under--who--who I think was in her country under Japanese rule. She came
here, Hester, and they both moved there and moved and lived in the
neighborhood right around the corner from Bidwell. I'm hoping some of this
stuff here-- Snow: [simultaneous talking] Oh, it's great. Robinson: I'm
really trying to piece this together. It's--I'm leaving a lot of stuff out.
I'm just trying to get the heart of it. Okay.
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Snow: And that would have been about the same time that the United Negro
Protest Committee was formed.
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Robinson: All that stuff was--I never had a real input into that. Most of
the stuff that we were doing was on the North Side. A heavy or--North Side
has always been organized, heavily organized. Even today, it's got some
strong organization. Manchester has always been organized. We're from way
back. In the late 50s and early 60s. Particularly when I--in Bidwell Church
was a meeting place, a center place for a lot of stuff. We just--Picket
signs. Oh, there was a lot going on.
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Snow: Well, I would think they would have to be organized. I remember
seeing the Urban Redevelopment Authority's North Side Study, I think was
the title of it, where it basically shows this map and they were going to
flatten the entire area and put high rise luxury apartments and a stadium
and-- Robinson: We stopped them.
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Robinson: Made him bring it right back to residential. Haughton Elevator
wanted to move down on the corner of Manhattan and North. And when they
showed up, we--we put ourselves out there again and would not let them come
in. I mean, we--there was a lot of people, a lot of neighborhood people
stood out there day after day. This was every day. I mean, every day. But
then the church began to trust me. And they begin and I begin to get a
bigger picture of what was going on. Now, I didn't get into a Black thing
and nothing like that. I was still not into that until I got the king into
the Greenwood, Mississippi and all that. And then if I could I don't know
if I can get you all this stuff here and how I came to really have a
conscious. Conscience. With that--It comes later. But--but what I got was a
sense of community organization. That's what I learned. And I really
learned it. And then I was going to New York and I was involved in a thing
called IFCO, the International Federation of Community Organizations.
Lucius Walker was the head of that. And when I went there, Lucius had
everything from Indians to Chinese, organized all over the country. And I
used to go there a couple of times a week, a month. I used to listen to
Malcolm preach. I began to read. I began to get a sense of identity. I
really began to get a sense of identity. I really did. It was coming. Uh, I
don't know if this is in line with that. I went in New York to a meeting
where Ron Karenga. Leroy with
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Robinson: Black poetry was at a place in New Jersey. They began to talk
about the motherland and they began to talk about how we were brought over
here in slavery [??]--I said oh, phooey. You know I can't buy this. It was
ministers, social workers. All of us from IFCO were there at that meeting.
New York the next day, New Jersey and New York, right close. We could just,
you know, in a bus go back and forth. So I listened to that the first day--
they were dressed up in African garb. Leroy Jones was quoting all this
poetry and Karenga and all this big afros and stuff around their neck and
talking about the motherland and all that. I said, Oh, phooey. So I
listened to that the first day and the second day and the third day I said,
Something's wrong here. And then I talked to another guy. He is--I can't
think of his name. He's a Presbyterian minister. We went back to the hotel
and I said, You know, if this is all true, then all of my life. From high
school, elementary school all the way up to this time I've been had.
Something's wrong here. So then we went back to New York and these guys
started again. So then I said--and he said it too--then we started crying.
We started holding on to each other. We just started crying. And then I was
angry. And then I was mad. Then I started blaming everybody from elementary
school to Pitt. In seminary. I was mad at everybody. I don't want to talk
to white people. That was just--started all that. And that happened in New
York City.
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Snow: And that was before you went to Greenwood, Mississippi.
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Robinson: That was before I went to Greenwood, Mississippi. Snow: Wow.
Robinson: Pretty sure. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that happened before. Yeah,
that happened before I went to Greenwood, that's why--Yes.
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Snow: Yeah. Given the date on your biography. Robinson: [simultaneous
talking] I'm pretty sure. Snow: It would have to be because--
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Robinson: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's when it happened.
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Snow: Because Malcolm X had been assassinated before you went to
Greenwood.
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Robinson: [simultaneous talking] Yeah, and that's--that--That happened.
But civil rights was kind of a thing that crept in. But the consciousness I
didn't get quite get to that until I heard a lot of things and I began to
put it together. The anger came. I mean, I was just, oh, I said some things
to people that were just. Just terrible. White friends and white friends of
mine. It was not good. I was just--I looked at the--I looked at the
chocolate beach. I looked at the time I couldn't sit in the theater. I
looked at the time at Pitt. I looked at all of that and I just blamed
everybody for everything. I just did. I was just so angry. I just couldn't
get myself together. Just bad. It was bad. Took me about 5 or 6 years to
get myself together. As I told you one guy said, Man, I met you. He was a
white guy. He said, You were the meanest son of a bitch I've ever seen in
my life. And--and I had to apologize. I said, you know, I just--Those were
some bad days. Just some bad days. And I was hard on the guys that worked
around me who were white. Just--just tough. Now I'm leaving a lot of stuff
out here. There's a lot of things that's going--I'm giving you the quick
version here. Snow: Okay. Robinson: I could talk on any one of these
topics. And I could make a book out of it. I could talk a long time about
any one of those topics.
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Snow: Well, I hope that you are able to make a book out of it. It sounds
worthwhile.
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Robinson: Well, it's a lot of talking. I'm giving you a lot of words here.
A lot of stuff.
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Snow: In this organizing you were doing in Manchester-- Robinson: Mm-hm.
Snow: --how much interaction did you have with the politicians and the
Urban Redevelopment Authority and--
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Robinson: No.
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Snow: So it was mostly just having to confront the bulldozers.
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Robinson: [simultaneous talking] Neighborhood. Well, it was all about
keeping the area residential. Snow: Okay. Robinson: It was all about the
Citizen Clergy Coordinating around slum housing. That developed. It was all
about trying to get people into housing, decent housing. It was all about
exposing the--the Riddle Rossfeld. The--the--they called them--there was
the head of the Realtors Association. I don't know what you call them. I
could look and find out. It was--it was all about them, exposing them at
the very top. You have to--When you organize, you've got to have a devil.
Snow: Okay. Robinson: You got to have a demon. Snow: Right. Robinson: You
got to organize around something. Something. And that's who we organize
around was them. And we picked them out. And we ran through his house to
his place of business. Made him come to the table. There's a lot of stuff
in the paper about that.
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Snow: What was the relationship like between the the Citizens Clergy
Coordinating Committee and Cash Citizens Against Slum Housing, which also
seems to be North Side?
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Robinson: Uh, I can't remember too much. I think--I think most of the
organizations all came together around the Citizens Cl-- I'm pretty
sure--In fact, I remember the Citizens Clergy with Bouie Haden and all of
that, kind of, we all came together under that one organization. I'm pretty
sure Cash was, if I can remember, we were all pretty much under Citizens
Clergy. Snow: Okay. Robinson: I'm not sure. There's a lot of people
involved in that. We picked up a lot of steam. There's a lot of people who
just really complete-- Then we got the bishops involved, met with them.
And, uh, there's a lot of pressure put on Riddle Rossfeld. You know, they
had to come to the table and sign an agreement. That's all history. About
what they would do with the housing. Then in those days, MCC was called
PAC. The Project Area Committee. John Long was once again and all of that
was putting pressure on urban. Sit ins, all that stuff. Making them put in
city lights, streets, new walks, you know, making Duquesne Light go
underground and put in decent basis for electrical wiring. That was all
community organizing. I can remember going down to Duquesne Light when
people were not getting the right kind of treatment from the Duquesne
Light, I can remember citizens going down there with about 5000 pennies and
spreading them all over the floor and disrupting that place. And people
couldn't get in there to pay their bills. I can remember that just as well.
I can remember putting garbage out in the middle of the street up on
Allegheny Avenue, stacking garbage up damn near 15ft high. Burnt out cars.
Making a man up there ,move his old imported car place that he used to burn
cars and put stashed garbage in the neighborhood. We pulled his fence down,
we pulled his cars out and called the police and the firemen. And disrupted
the whole traffic. I can remember all that.
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Snow: How was the city dealing with your organizing?
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Robinson: Not bad. You know, you had people on the city that were pretty
hip about what was going on. It was all nonviolent. It was all organized.
That's only a couple of things. I mean, that was every day.
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Snow: I'm surprised at this. I had been told that the Saul Alinsky style
of organizing didn't come to Pittsburgh until the Shady Side Action
Coalition--
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Robinson: No. A lot of people came here with their own ideas. Snow: Yeah.
Robinson: IFCO didn't believe that. Linsky felt that he was the only guy in
the world that could organize. Snow: Sure. Robinson: He's very arrogant. He
said that the North Side had too many, too much turf, too many different
cut off areas. And he was probably right. But he didn't know he was talking
about. But he didn't realize how well organized we were either. But he came
here several times. Snow: Wow. Robinson: Came here at least two times that
I know of. He's such an arrogant son of a bitch. You know, he--he, uh. And
he told Lucius Walker that Black guys couldn't organize. I mean, he, you
know, he just said things like that. And then on top of that, Alinsky got
into this little speech about Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address and a
whole lot of-- Well, not necessarily that, but but behind it all, he was
accused of being very, very conservative in the way that he organized. You
know, so he had his-- I didn't know that much about him. I know that,
John--I know that John Long was very much instrumental in teaching how--how
to organize. I learned a lot from him. It was O'Malley, me and John. I
feel--And some-- there's a couple other people I named who were--who were
very at the top on putting organizational times and places. It was
organized. We didn't just get up and just take picket signs and organize.
It was put together. It was very well laid out--who was going to do what,
who was the spokesman, what speeches were going to be said, who was going
to talk to the police if you got arrested, who is going to get you out.
That was all laid out. There was a lot of stuff done behind the scenes. We
didn't just go out and picket. It was all well organized and a lot of it
was pretty radical. A lot of stuff are some things that I can tell you that
were some things that were done to stop traffic.
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Snow: And the city never leaned on you to cool it? Robinson: No.
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Robinson: I can remember one place where they went in and they called it.
I can't put it on tape where they went in and stopped all the toilets.
Shoved them--Stuffed them all up. Went in there and crapped and jammed up
all them toilets and had stuff flowing all over the place. I mean, heavy.
Fierce. I mean, when the top floor down to the bottom floor, [Snow laughs]
they jammed up all the toilets and flushed them. There was a lot of people
involved in that. And those people came to the table. They came to us. You
know, this is illegal. What are you talking about? I don't know anything
about this. How can you say that--That was--You know, that. That kind of
stuff.
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Snow: That sounds like it would be a lot of fun and very--
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Robinson: Well, it was very well-- It was done.
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Snow: It gave you a lot of energy.
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Robinson: There was--Well, that was done. Serious stuff. Snow: Yes.
Robinson: I remember the cop coming out. We had all this stuff in the
middle of the street up there. He looked at all that and he couldn't
believe it. And he went over to John Long right away. [Laughs] They were
going to take John to jail. We were over there talking to someone else.
They were getting ready to take John to jail. John says, Jim, they're
taking me to jail because they blamed John. They knew that Long John Long
was responsible for that. Well, it was not only John, but gee whiz. It's
just--If you would have seen up near Northern Lights and by that church,
that big Methodist church--garbage stacked high. I mean, cars, old
imported, half burnt out cars and garbage stacked high all across the
street. It was--That's where it was. It's all about this man who would not
move his--who wanted to make the neighborhood his dump. He sold cars
another place and brought his car--He says, It's my property, I can do what
I want to do. Well, we said, No, you can't. That's why we're trying to keep
the area rezone. Then they finally come around to it and just
residential--made it a residential area. Eventually they just did that. But
it wasn't until a lotta that stuff. I'm doing a lot of talking here.
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Snow: No, it's good.
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Robinson: How much more you got to go here?
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Snow: How much time do you have?
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Robinson: Let's go for a little while longer here. Snow: Okay. Robinson:
Okay.
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Snow: So what took you to Greenwood, Mississippi? How did you get
involved?
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Robinson: A minister who was this same Harold Toliver, who got me into the
seminary, got sick. I don't think he wanted to go, but I went with four
other guys or four of us together--was it 4 or 5 of us? And we went there
because the voter registration in Greenwood and the Black Belt had broken
down. And we were there to continue to keep voter registration of Blacks
going. Went down there for that reason. And when we got down there, we
drove four of us. And with Pennsylvania license to Greenwood. Got there
that day and that night they had this rally. And the day before they had
sicced the dogs on these people for demonstrating. But The New York Times
and the national television sets, thank God, were there the day that we
were going to go down and continue the demonstration. And I'll make it
quick. I won't give you all the dynamics behind it. We just simply went
down with all those people around this little jailhouse and listening to
all the kids that had been arrested with SNCC and--and all the other--Let
me see, what other organizations of kids. In this jailhouse, you could see
up there and rather dramatic. And the lawyers from the National Council of
Churches Television, and they couldn't put the dogs on us because of the
cameras, and went down there and they told us we could not walk. And as
they kept on blocking it off and making it shorter and shorter and shorter,
then the last time they put us in jail in a wagon and took us down to jail.
Got arrested. And that was that.
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Snow: And you were telling me last time we talked about--
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Robinson: A little boy.
Snow: Right. And being released from the--
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Robinson: Little boy, that the warden called me into the jail and said to
me he knew my history. He brought us this--He--This guy was different. He
came in and he lectured me. He said to me that Dick Gregory, it was funny.
Dick Gregory was down here, ran all over the grass. I don't know what that
had to do with anything. Ran all over our grass. And, you know, we treat
our Negroes this way. I said, good in this place, you know? He went on and
on. I'm scared to death. So then after the conclusion of the message, he
says, but I'm going to teach you a lesson. And then he put me back in the
saddle. And the next night he let me out with this--I don't know, it was a
young man or a young girl. I couldn't quite remember what it was, but I was
30 some years old then. I think I was 30 something years old. He led us out
deliberately. And when he let us out, now, this other person knew where the
Freedom House was, and that was kind of off bounds for some reason. Nobody
bothered you at this place. He let us out and this little white kid
couldn't have been no more than 8 or 9 years old said, Don't go down that
way. There's some people down there who want to hurt you--hurt you or want
to kill you. Hey, Debbie, go ahead.
