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Michael Snow: Okay. James Robinson: Music is a deep part of my soul. I got
more stuff on the computer, on the Internet, that I've gotten off of real
players and Devin and mix, and when I get up in the morning, I play it. I
got it all there. I have a lot of CDs. My wife does, too. We play a lot of
music. I like to listen to music. I love jazz.
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Snow: Was there much of a jazz scene in Connellsville? Robinson:
[simultaneous talking] No, no, no, no. Snow: I wouldn't think so.
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Robinson: No, there's nothing. No, there's--I can't remember. My life in
those days was all sports. From the time that I was 11 years old until I
was 17. Well, even before that, nine and ten, you know, football, rough and
tumble races around the block, competing with kids, you know. 101 got a
candy bar throughout the softball league. There was a guy who--they had a
YMCA. They had a softball league and we competed on streets. Third Street,
Fifth Street, Seventh Street, Ninth Street. We had that league there, and
then we played with people in other parts of the city and a lot of
softball. Then--then I got bigger. Then we played Junior. Then as a
freshman in high school, I got into sports, deep into sports, because I was
bigger, too. Then played all-- I did all that, basketball, football, track.
I was big. And so, you know, sports was a major part of my adolescent
years, even from 12 to about 26. I was into sports. Mainly adolescent
years.
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Snow: And was Pitt the only school that you were thinking of going to?
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Robinson: I was Roman Catholic. Converted when I was 12 years old. Went to
Immaculate Conception, even though I went to Connellsville High School. But
I wanted to go to Notre Dame. But there were no--you got to understand,
there were no Blacks at any major--not that I can
remember--college--colleges in 1943, 1944. And when I graduated in 1945, I
can remember that there was a fella, a young man in Derry Township who ran
track. He was good. His last name was Joe. Snow: Joe. Robinson: Larry Joe.
And my senior year, a guy from Georgia got us mixed up. I got called out of
the study hall, and they thought, Jimmy Joe. They thought my last name was
Joe. My name is--my nickname was Jimmy Joe Robinson. So he came to me and
saw me. He looked up and saw me and he says, You know, I'd love to have
you. I know about you, but, you know, we just can't recruit you. It's just.
In those days, it was called what? Jim Crow. Wasn't segregated--Jim Crow.
The laws. The South still had their Jim Crow laws of restricted restaurants
and fountains and couldn't drink from certain fountains. I can remember
when I was in the Army. When I was 17 years old, 18 years old. After the
World War was over, I would come back from Pittsburgh on leave. Then when I
went to Washington, D.C., in 1946 and the train stations, the fountains
says colored and white. And then when you got on a train, when you got to a
certain place, they had a Jim Crow coach. You had to get off--out of your
coach. And when you went into Virginia where our station and get in the Jim
Crow coach and go into the camp, it was Jim Crow coach. Can you believe
that? [both laugh] Snow: No. Robinson: Jim Crow coach.
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Snow: That's horrible.
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Robinson: So we had to pack a lunch. I meet the guys from Philadelphia. I
think that coach took on--I'm pretty sure it took on in Washington, D.C.,
the capital. And we would buy chicken and stuff like that. We'd buy--Well,
in those days booze, we get on a train and all the Black soldiers, we'd
just get out of a different coach and go into the Jim Crow coach. And, and,
go, go, go to Fort Eustis, Virginia. Call the Jim Crow coach. You couldn't
ride with a white passenger. Just a Jim Crow coach.
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Snow: I'm a little bit confused on the--on the timing. You first went into
the military or you first went to--
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Robinson: Well, I was at Pitt one year. Snow: One year. Robinson: 1945.
Snow: Okay. Robinson: Then I was drafted. Snow: All right. Robinson: For
the first time and went into the Army one year. It was really seven months.
It was right after the World War was over and I was discharged. What they
called for the convenience of the government. Then later on, I was drafted
again when I was with the Cleveland Browns.
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Snow: As part of Korea or something?
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Robinson: Well, when the Korean War came-- Snow: Okay. Robinson: --When I
was with the Browns, then they drafted me again because I didn't spend
enough time the first time when I was at Pitt in '46. So they drafted me
again. I was drafted twice. I was literally drafted twice.
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Robinson: The--can you--
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Robinson: Can you get the-- Snow: Yes. It just-- Robinson: [simultaneous
talking] Can you get the time sequence?
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Snow: Going sequentially or backing up a little bit, what was it like
being in the first set of African American football players at Pitt?
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Robinson: The players themselves, the white players were the nicest guys
in the world. In Pitt--I said this at the banquet--there were only two
places where you could eat, Blacks could eat, in those places. I can
remember a track player named Johnny Morton going into a bar at--getting
beer, and after he drank it, the bartender broke the glass right in front
of him. [laughs] This is in Pittsburgh in 1945. And I remember sitting in a
restaurant and the young lady who was a waitress came over to me. There
were about 5 or 6 of us eating. She says the I'm sorry, but the manager
will not--He says, You cannot eat here. The players--white--took the
tables, turned them over and said, Let's get the hell out of here. I'm
still sitting there. I didn't know what was going on. I'm that dumb. They
understood what was going--what the woman was saying to me and she didn't
want to say it, but she was only doing what the--what the manager wanted
her to say. Just a little restaurant in Oakland. Was 1945.
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Snow: But the cafeterias and the dormitories at Pitt?
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Robinson: There were no dormitories. We did not stay in dormitories in
those days. And the--all of the, if I can remember, all those fraternities
were segregated. By--mm. Can't think of the word. They were segregated.
Black and white. Fraternities were segregated. Pittsburgh Athletic
Association. You know, like, no, you didn't think about it. We laugh now
when we go in there. You just didn't. That's a no no. There's just places
you just didn't go. Snow: Right. Robinson: And you knew it. This is
Oakland. This is--This is Pittsburgh.
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Snow: Right. Well, that barrier is taking a lot longer to fall than many
of the others. Robinson: Yes. Snow: So that's that's not surprising to me.
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Robinson: So the answer--Did I answer? Snow: Yes. Robinson: Okay. Snow:
Yes.
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Snow: And then after the military you return to Pitt and then you were
drafted by the Cleveland Browns.
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Robinson: Drafted by the Browns at the end of, I think, 48, 49 or 49--It's
probably 1949. Get my year straight. I drafted number three. Paul Brown
drafted me number three with Cleveland. So. While I was there, I was
drafted again into the Army. Played three games and was drafted in the
Army.
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Snow: Where were you stationed in the Army that time?
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Robinson: Uh. Let's see. Where did I go? You know, one thing I can't get
myself--Military District of Washington. Fort--Fort Myer. Right by the
Pentagon. Third, whatever they call it. Third Army. That's where they spit
and polish when they bury soldiers--when they have the hearse and all that,
the spit and polish soldiers.
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Snow: And was that an integrated unit?
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Robinson: Naw. It was--The Army was integrated. Snow: Okay. Robinson: I'm
telling you, this is the damnedest thing. But the--the--I was in special
service and I was stationed in Detachment One and Detachment Two.
Detachment One, the last--Washington, DC--the last place in the Army, in
the world, in the Army--that was not integrated was that detachment. And
this is funny. My father-in-law was the general manager of the Pittsburgh
Courier. He made a call to the Washington whatever it was, which was
another Black newspaper. In one day, they made that Colonel--What was his
name from Georgia, Colonel Somebody--stood up in front of us all and said,
this is not--now the whole Army's integrated--It is--If it were up to me, I
would not do this. But we must integrate these two little companies, Number
One and Number Two. I didn't care. In those days, once again, I wasn't
racial conscious. I just had a good deal. I was in the Army. Special
Service, didn't do nothing, played football. That's all I did. Worked in
the theater. You know. But my father-in-law. There, you know, and then I
can't think of the name of the the Black newspaper in Washington. There was
a--they were connected, you know, but--but--but they--they integrated. Last
place in the world was in Washington, DC. I was on a camp where--where all
of the Army, uh, General, all the big generals, both Air Force and Army,
were stationed there. There were something like 32 major generals, big
generals, at that place. Mm. What's the one guy? I can't remember. Oh, I
could tell you some stories, too. But you don't want to hear all that about
the Army.
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Snow: Okay.
Robinson: You just--Just really. Some things that happened to me in the
Army. Oh, boy. I won't go there. But I was--That's what happened to me, if
I just make it general here. So I was drafted again.
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Snow: I forgot to ask you. When you were at Pitt, what were you studying?
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Robinson: Well, that's a good question. [Laughs] Started out in
Pre-Dental, but ended up graduating with a Bachelor of Arts in history.
Snow: Hm. Robinson: Which didn't make no sense. I got a Bachelor of Arts.
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Snow: Didn't make any sense from a career standpoint? Robinson: No, no.
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Robinson: I just screwed around. I didn't do my best. I got a degree,
though. Snow: Okay.
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Snow: Were you a member of many organizations in college? Robinson:
[simultaneous talking] No. No. Snow: And then after the military, you
signed on with the Pittsburgh Steelers?
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Robinson: They traded me from the Browns to the Steelers.
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Snow: So you went back to the Browns?
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Robinson: Yes, I got out of the Army--No, I didn't go back to the Browns.
While I was in the Army, they traded me to the Steelers. I went to the
Steelers after I got out of the Army--A long story there. And I made our
lasting friendship with Art Rooney. Snow: Did you? Robinson: Oh, yes. I got
cut. On the day before payday with the Pittsburgh Steelers. Then I ended up
in Montreal. But Mr. Rooney, I'll never forget, sent me a letter, by the
way, that I got done in. And that's another story. We were playing the Los
Angeles Rams. This is a pre-season. And this coach, this coach, he wanted
me to go in and play another position. I'm 26, 24, 25 years old. Four, 24.
25 years old. I said I can't play. I don't know that position. He went
through a lot of stuff. I was on the sideline, so I told him what he could
do with his position. And I was young and a whole lot of other stuff I
said, too. So he cut me. Rooney said, You do not have to leave the team.
Snow: Really. Robinson: Sent me--Give me a letter. And I said, no. If I
play, I'll never--The man will never--Hey, Jamal. The man will never, ever
let me play and I'll be like--like a dog. Then this Roman Catholic priest,
they cut me, called Canada, the Montreal Alouettes, and they asked me to
come up. And of course, their season, you know, in the seasons in the
Canadian football, because of the cold weather. And so it was the middle of
their season. Snow: Oh, was it? Yeah. And I went up with the Montreal
Alouettes, but I didn't make the team. Then the next year I came back and
that was--that was the end of me. I just was--I could have gone to another
team, but I just--it was a story to that too. And the reason why I didn't
go to another team was because I had a religious conversion and I mean a
strong religious conversion I got--was in a family there with a woman and
the captain.
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Unidentified Speaker: Reverend Robinson, please call 6150. Reverend
Robinson, please call 6150.
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Robinson: I should tell them not to--Yeah, went there and stayed with the
captain of the Montreal Alouettes football team. Then I sent for my wife
and my son, who was about three years old, four years old, three years old.
And through her I was converted. Converted to Christ, and in the most
dynamic way. I quit everything. Snow: Did you? Robinson: Quit everything,
football, everything. Just stopped and ended up going around and, uh,
testifying about Christ, what he meant to me, what I was and did it all
over Canada. Just did it. I just did everything. And I was broke too. Betty
and I were really broke. Then came back to Pittsburgh. And we came back to
Pittsburgh, ran into a man at Grace Memorial Presbyterian Church. He said
to me, I think you ought to be--I'm making a short version of it--He said,
I think you ought to be in a seminary. And I said, I don't think so. I did
too many other things. I--preacher, I can't, I couldn't see it, even at
Christmas. He says, you need to talk to another man. He sent me to a man in
Belowra [ph] who was my--ended up being my theological teacher and Greek
teacher and who--Fred Rogers and I became good friends there at the
seminary. And also we had something in common with Dr. Orr. He was my
mentor, my friend. I talked to him--that was like in June, and in September
I ended up in a seminary.
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Snow: That was at Western Theological?
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Robinson: Western Theological Seminary, where
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Robinson: He was. Snow: Okay.
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Robinson: He--I just--He just--The man impressed me. And, of course, Fred
and I had his funeral when he died at the seminary. Snow: Oh, did you?
Robinson: Mm-hm. We did a funeral. Both of us.
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Snow: And then after Western Theological, where was your first calling?
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Robinson: There were no--there was only three Black Presbyterian churches.
Here we go again. And you understand now that there may be--there are six
Black Presbyterian churches, but only because of the change, the
neighborhood change. When people move away, another group of people move
in. And so therefore, the church in many--most cases just changes. Snow:
Right. Robinson: When--when--when people go move away, whites move away,
then Blacks move in--that church, Presbyterian, becomes Black. See, I kind
of got lost here.
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Snow: You were talking about--Well, I think you were--you were trying to
say that there were no opportunities--[unintelligible]
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Robinson: Oh. So when I graduated from Western, the only church that I got
a call from was a church in Wichita, Kansas, called Brotherhood Church. And
I went there, 1100 miles away as an assistant pastor. The minister there
didn't want me and that church was changing. It lost 500 members in one
year, when I got there. Not because of me, but because the neighborhood
shifted. Blacks moved from downtown up around Brotherhood Church, which was
up near Wichita University, and people flew. I never saw anything like it
in my life. 500 members. Maybe over two years, maybe just say two years.
But they lost that many members and they went down to 200 members. Snow:
Wow. Robinson: The school board changed its, uh--its--its area which made a
difference. They changed their--Let me see, what do you call it, their--Mm.
I can't think of it. I should know, I'm on the school board, too. They
changed their zoning area. They changed their registration areas there,
uh--Mm. Anyway. And the churches there moved out. And that area once again
became all Black. And so the congregation wanted to minister to people in
the area.
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Robinson: So I got called there as an assistant. That's how I got there.
Went there. The senior minister told me, here again, if I'd have had my
way, I would not have called because there's no--for 200 members? But he
couldn't minister to Blacks. And then our church wanted to to make the
transition, you know, final. So that's the only place where I get a job. So
I stayed there two years and I learned. I'd never been to church before,
never been in any church except Roman Catholic Church. Snow: I see.
Robinson: But as a minister. No, I'd gone to seminary. I'm 33 years old in
this place. And--and just the senior minister said, you know, simply said,
I just and he--he was a real dog. Never invited us to his house. Told me
every day that--just about. But I'm an older guy, see? And even then, I had
no social--I had no sense of social, you know, there was no, really, across
the country, any Rosa Parks or--that's--you know, we're talking now about,
let's say, 1951. Snow: [simultaneous talking] 59?
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Robinson: Fifty-- 51? Snow: I think it was 59. Robinson: 59.
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Robinson: We're talking 59. I'm losing track of time myself. So, you know,
so there I am. Now, the--there were some sit ins, during those days, at
Ponca City, Oklahoma. There were some guys on the bus and all that kind of
stuff. A lot of this was going on. There were some things then that were
moving. A lot of these guys were sitting at the lunch counters. There was a
young man I can remember from Pittsburgh who was on one of those things.
Uh, Obie Simms. Obediah Sims. He went there and he got crippled. They beat
him so bad. But there were things going on. The Freedom Riders, they called
them. I can remember that. I didn't have any significance to me. Even then.
It didn't. But that was all around me. That was I think that was in
Oklahoma. The interesting thing happened to me while I was in brotherhood.
I was the director of the camp. You know, they have presbyteries. I was the
only Black Presbyterian minister in the whole state of Kansas. And we have
presbyteries and then they have camps. What helped me more than anything is
those kids in that church found out I had a football background and they
liked me. And I began to work with the kids in the church. And that guy was
jealous. My senior was jealous of me. He really was, because the kids took
to me and I was young. I was 33, 35, and my--my athletic background caught
up with me because people came through and said, I remember you such and
such a thing. And those kids knew that I had played college football and
they just took to me. Had a camp. I was a director of the camp. This young
girl got bit by a spider, so I was driving her to the hospital and a cop
pulled me over. You know, what are you doing with this white kid in this
car?
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Robinson: This is--this is an Oklahoma.
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Snow: That was in Oklahoma.
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Robinson: That was in Oklahoma.
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Robinson: That's where the camp was.
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Snow: Okay.
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Robinson: And my God, Oklahoma is right on the border-- Snow: Right.
Robinson: --of Kansas. And I said, my God, I said, I'm taking--And that guy
drove with me with that girl in the car to the hospital.
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Snow: Just out of curiosity, was she in the front seat or the back?
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Robinson: She was in the front seat of my car. I had a little car. Snow:
Okay. Robinson: You know, I drove. I drove, you know, there. Young lady
went out one night with her boyfriend. Her name was Bond. Her mother's name
was Opal Bond. She was from Georgia. She went out one night. Stayed all
night with this boy. Young, little, blonde haired, blue eyed girl. And came
in drunk. She wouldn't talk to anybody but me.
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Robinson: Now this--
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Robinson: I'm back at Brotherhood Church in Kansas. Her mother called the
house. 2 or 3 in the morning. I went over. Her name was Roxanne or
something like that. And I talked to her and I said, you know, you
can't--you can't go this way. You can't do this. And you just can't do
this. So she got herself together. She talked to me. And I
became--that--that woman and I became strong friends that--over because of
her daughter. And when her daughter, she became pregnant, she got pregnant.
This young man, they--and they were, you know, they loved each other. And
when the baby was born, she did not want the senior pastor to baptize the
baby. She wanted me to--and he just about had apoplexy. He was mad at me.
Mad at the mother. And of course, she was tough. She said, I don't care
about anything. I want this man to baptize the baby. So that was the
experience I had at Brotherhood Church. Then after two years, I had really
learned about the church. I had a feel for the city. I had a feel for the
changing churches that were going on. I met this young white guy and--I'm
jumping here--in Oklahoma, one of those things at camp and stuff like
that.
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Robinson: There was a church in San Diego, 800 members going through a
changing time. The area was changing just like it did at Brotherhood
church. They wanted co-pastors. He said, You and I can go there as
co-pastors. And I agreed. I agreed. I told the people I was going to leave
and they were upset. By then, I had made friends. By then, Don Close [ph]
had left and I was there by myself. So I came back to Pittsburgh on a
vacation. Just before I was going to get ready to go to San Diego, this
young woman wrote me a little note. White woman at Bidwell Church. Come and
look and see what we're doing. They had-- they didn't have a pastor
for--now, this is a church down the street. They had-- there hadn't been a
pastor for close to two years. I came and looked at it. It was the worst
looking place I ever saw in my life. Little raggedy church. I said, Oh,
man. So I left. I went back and we were going to spend a month. We were
back for a month before we went to California. That thing stuck with me.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.000
Unidentified Speaker: Miss Dennis [ph] would you please call extension 0?
Miss Dennis would you please call extension 0?
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Robinson: I said there's something about this place. I tell you, I got a
really--I got a deep sense and a deep feel for this place. My wife--my wife
said, you got to be--you got to be out of your mind to, you know. I said, I
can't help it. Well, of course, I'd never been in a Black church. I've
never been any church aside from Brotherhood Church and--and that was
predominantly white. What was left was predominantly white. There's only a
few Blacks at Brotherhood Church.
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Snow: Even by the time you left?
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Robinson: It wasn't many. Snow: No? Robinson: You know, people walk by
that church all them years and all of a sudden you think all the Black
people are going to run in there and join. No way. Strong AME church up the
street, strong Black Baptist Church up the street, strong Methodist Church
up the street. There's Brotherhood Church all these years. You think these
people why all of a sudden should we join?
