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Patrick: To help me with these nuts. Snow: All right. Patrick: Take a
handful of them here. Take a handful. Because they're getting stale on me.
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Snow: People have told me that the Ward chairman in the Hill district, in
Homewood, and the North side, the African American communities, continue to
have power or continued to have power long after they lost it in the other
areas. I was wondering if that's correct and maybe why that--
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Patrick: I would say it is. Yeah, I would say so.
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Snow: Why do you think that is?
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Patrick: Because there would be--there is a group of people who need the
ward chairman. Helped get my son out of jail, helped me get a job at the
refuse workers, help you get the summer job? When I first came to
town--what was his name? Anyway I said, oh, Chipedeen Salk[?]. Chipedeen
Salk [??] was the name way back then, '51. I remember telling myself I need
a job for one of my young people. Okay, he put him on the job--put him--put
him in a job, you know? He was the--this was before 12th Ward became a
Black ward. So he has that--has that kind of power and with with--and at
that class of folk and since most of us are at the point where we are at
some point or other, we feel we may likely need somebody with some
influence somewhere downtown. That's--we need influence. You need influence
sometimes, you know, sometimes you just have to need somebody who can say a
word at the proper time, the proper. And in some instances, the ward
chairman could do this, could. Now, I never had any experience, but--and I
had to respect them.
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Patrick: I respected them. They were performing a real service for the
community. People would, could go to them and and they could be an
intermediary. And I think that is still, still true. There's still Bobby
Harrison. Is he going to be for you? Because he has the committee people.
And if he says my committee people are well, many of them have jobs that he
got for them. I want you to support so and so and so. So they they will
support him. And since you have these cards put on by the party, these are
the names you vote for or the best thing is just go and pull the Democratic
lever. [laughs] But if you're going to look for names, then look for these
names, well, you got, I've seen the cards and heard that they give
instructions. Of course, no one has ever done that for me. I remember when
I was chairman of the Allegheny County Council on--Political
Allegheny--Pittsburgh Council. Pittsburgh. What was the--what was the. In
1972, we had a convention at Bethesda Church of the [chimes sound]
Pittsburgh Action--Pittsburgh Political. But anyway. We had in '72.
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Snow: Was it the Allegheny County Black Political Party?
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Patrick: Yeah, the Allegheny County Black political Party. Yeah. We had a
convention in '72 at Bethesda Church and another one in '74. And
what--what--what was the connection I was about to make?
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Snow: The ward chairman and voting.
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Patrick: Oh, the ward chairman had no part. Would have no part of this.
Here again, such like the Black political party of the state. You know, we
were well, all you did was my was my chief of staff. As a matter of fact,
it was he who asked me if I would be chairman because he was trying to get
this thing going. And you need a status name sometimes just to get people
to rally around. So. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, and so we had the party
going and but Bobby Harrison or whoever was the whoever was the ward
chairman that day. And I don't know whether it was Bobby Harrison or Lynn
Washington. I think it was after we turned Black, after we got rid of
whoever was the White woman who was chairperson, there was a White woman
who was chairperson and we all got together, get rid of her. [laughs] And
we got what? I don't know whether it was any better than she already--I
don't know. Probably not any better because once when the White is in and
knows the Black constituency is there, then she tries to try to help the
Black constituency. The Blacks then, he thinks he got there by himself. So
he--he--he's a problem to work with. [laughs]
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Patrick: Anyway, we had a successful convention of, there must have been a
thousand people at Bethesda. Then we had one at Fifth Avenue High School.
We had Walter Fauntroy, who was then a congressman from Washington, DC,
come in Fifth Avenue High School to address us. And I must say, Sala and my
committee, I'm up here, you know, lording it over you, getting this done,
this done, that done. I'm not doing a damn thing. Well, we had a successful
convention and we made a splash when we went to Gary, Indiana, when they
had, you know, the Gary Nano [??] and they had a national Black political
convention. Well, I went to that, my son went to that and several other
people in Pittsburgh went there. They didn't amount to anything either.
Finally, and we had one the next year or two years later, they had it in
Little Rock, Arkansas because I went there for that meeting. By that time,
Phil-- Phil--Phillips. Philip Parks. No, not Phillip--Phillips and Sala
were at each other's throats. Because Phillip--Sala was running the city
group and Phillip wanted to run the county group. And they couldn't agree
on anything, so. Well, Philip is now and is parenthetically in George Mason
University in Virginia. And of course Sala is in city council.
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Snow: Oh, is it Phil Carter? Patrick: Huh? Snow: Is it Phil Carter?
Patrick: What? Snow: Was his name Phil Carter?
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Patrick: Phil Carter. Yeah. Phil Carter. Phil Carter. Yeah. Phil Carter.
Yeah, well, we had a lot of ferment going on. We were going to make a
change, but you see. You White guys pick us off by giving a job here.
[laughs] Paul who was my national--state chairman. Well he had to resign as
chairperson. As he was resign as secretary and he got a good man to put in
his place. Well, I didn't realize till some well, a couple of years later
that things were coming, becoming too warm around me for Paul to do some
maneuvering in Harrisburg. He had to separate himself from me-- Snow: Wow.
Patrick: --because he was looking and he managed to land a plum there and
he's still in Harrisburg. But he couldn't--he couldn't do it, continuing
the association. Delores got fired. I don't know why she got fired. But we
couldn't get her back in. And she went to Leroy Irvis and said she wanted
her job back. I don't know whether Leroy Irvis talked to Shapp about
putting her back in or whether he just--whether he knew what--knew some
reason why she should be fired or not. I've never been privy to that. But
she didn't get the job back and so far as I know she and Leroy, well, I
guess they're still friends. I don't know. I shouldn't say anything about
that because I don't know about that. He was the speaker at the time, and
she felt that and I felt.
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Patrick: You don't fire this single Black female in your cabinet unless
you cleared it with somebody now. I don't think you do. I think it must
have been cleared. And I don't know. I'm just speculating again. But it
does seem to me that Shapp was too Shapp and the people around him were too
bright to allow themselves to be put in that sort of position, I would
think. But we had a great time. And locally with our political action, it
amounted to nothing. Finally, because as I said, people got jobs. I can't
remember all the people now, but I remember, well even in my school board,
some of my strong committee people. I saw a woman last night at this
Harrison [??], who was on my strong committee members in the Education
Committee, and she got a job as a school aide and she stopped coming to
meetings. Well, you know, I guess everybody has this price. Everybody? Most
of us. I don't know what my price is. I don't know what. My price is, I
think, is to get to see some justice done somewhere, see things happen, see
makes a change for the better. Make a change for the better. As I said to
you earlier, when I don't see when I go and do Hoffman's and see all these
Black clerks around, why were there such a fuss in putting a Black clerk
behind a counter in the department? Why? Why all this? What harm is it
going to do? Well.
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Patrick: Took a lot of just press the meeting, meeting. I remember going
to Sear's office when he was on on Howard Avenue trying to get some clerks.
Couldn't hire. No, no, couldn't. [unintelligble] You know, that sort of
thing. Makes you think we still have a long ways to go because now we got
the openings, but the guys can maneuver. You know, the law is not enforced.
The top guys, as I said about these people on the construction job on the
highway, I have a friend whose son works in a-- in one of the offices, one
of the large firms. We are--he says he sees it in his firm, the Blacks
being bypassed. He can say nothing. He's not--he, he he is at the level
where he can't say anything because then they can bypass him out, of
course. But I don't know whether he would say anything if he could, but at
least he sees this going on. And we have the laws. You know, people say
they want to. Well, you saw that piece on the Newsweek last, the three
Black Power people, the Black who is now a head of-- What is it? The AOL.
AOL Warner? Snow: No, I. Patrick: You saw that item? You missed that? Snow:
I missed it. I'll look for it.
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Patrick: Three weeks ago, I think. These three Blacks. [ed. note:
Patrick's microphone seemingly falls off] Put this back on me. It's one of
them. A. W. Warner is another one. And. There's a third one. And they say
Black power. Well, there are three out of what? How many CEOs of big
corporations? 500? Snow: 500. Patrick: 5000. So when you get three, what
kind of Black power are you talking about? Oh.
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Snow: One other question I had about the ward chairman was-- Patrick: Oh,
uh huh, all right Snow: Did the civil rights activists try to use the ward
chairman to get the--to push it forward-- Patrick: No. Snow: --the agenda.
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Patrick: The ward chairman were always and still are suspect. Uh, it is
felt that they are too closely tied to their political structure to be of
any use. And I don't think I've ever seen them at a, at a civil rights
strategy meeting. And I don't recall. I even see them at the civil rights
mass meetings. Now, Doc Field has been ward chairman for the 12th Ward for
many years. Well, he wouldn't, he would not be--he need some help from--he
would not be of the the...economic or educational class to be to be
included in a lot of things. Bobby Harrison is the ward chairman for
Homewood, and that's what's called, the council woman's father.
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Snow: Valerie McDonald Roberts.
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Patrick: Yeah, yeah, so. I think he's probably a little more respected
than--than his chairman, partly because his--he's generally been a nice
fellow, you know, get along with. He is supposed to be a member of my
church. He didn't come very much, but he was at least I could say, probably
get on the church. But. But you have they were they were they helpful in
the civil rights struggle? No. Not that they tried to do anything against
the civil rights struggle. I don't know of any. I don't think--that it
would be unfair and untrue to say that they did. I think. Were they able to
be helpful? They would have been. And maybe were were they-- Were they in
the place that they could be helpful? But it's--I didn't have any close
association with them. They were not people that I felt I could, would go
to for for any any help, in any things that I was engaged in.
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Snow: You mentioned Sala Udin and it brings to mind a classic
interpretation of of the civil rights movement in the 1960s and 70s that
the militants and the integrationists were at each other's throats so often
that that progress was stalled. Did you see much tension between the two
groups in Pittsburgh?
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Patrick: No, I don't think there was much tension. The militants tended to
ignore the accommodationists and the accommodationists tended to stay in
the background. They didn't--they weren't out front. They were not part of
any real movement. Any real thrust out there. So they sort of. Sort of.
Understood. You were going to be you--you didn't cross over to this group
because, you know, you couldn't. The militants were were not the highly
educated. [chimes sound] They tended to have the street smarts, but not not
the smarts of a--of the intellectual. They tended to be more brusque in
their language and their approaches. So there was--there was not a not a
lot of opportunity to for them to to relate to each other. I think I relate
to both groups. I think so. Maybe because in my church I have both groups.
You know, you have the intellectual, you have the and you have to learn to
work with both groups. But if you as I as I see them today, them being the
militants and the the-- [sound of rustling papers] They who are going to
put on. Had you seen that?
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Snow: Now, I hadn't seen this flyer yet.
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Patrick: Have you seen this?
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Snow: I didn't know the Black Radical Congress had a Pittsburgh chapter
yet.
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Patrick: I didn't either until I received that. [laughs] But apparently it
does. Well the persons who are running the running--those would not
be--would not fit well with the accommodationists--accommodationists. See,
they are, let us get something done, let it be done now--it should have
been done yesterday. Whereas the accommodationsts--well, now let's see how
we can reason together. Well take it with you. You see. You see, I was
throwing it out--putting it in the wastebasket. Snow: Okay. I will.
Patrick: See if anybody in your group had anything to know about this.
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Snow: Well, I didn't know that the Western PA Committee to Free Mumia was
was at all active anymore. I hadn't heard anything from them for a while.
[sound of papers folding] Another general political question I had was: how
much power did the political endorsement by the Democratic Party have over
Black candidates in keeping them from pushing forward the civil rights
agenda.
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Patrick: In, in?
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Snow: In keeping them from pushing forward a civil rights agenda once in
office.
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Patrick: And keeping them pushing, pushing for. I don't know. I think,
from my association with the Black politician. That he would sense that
he'd better not go out too far. For anything that smacked of confronting
the establishment. I never heard of him confronting the establishment. In
Chicago. Walter Washington was it? The mayor of Chicago? Was Washington's
last name when Hampton, Fred Hampton was shot by the police. Do you
remember he was shot in his bed? Police claimed that he drew a gun and
demanded I say sleeping. I understand that--and the district attorney is
trying to use this as a means of getting to the mayorship that Washington
defied the establishment, went out and pushed those--you don't vote for
this man as mayor and his party. And of course, he did not make it because
he said they deliberately murdered Hampton because he was a Black Panther.
You know, he was--all Black Panthers were suspect. But he was one of the
one of the one of the leaders. So they finally got him. Well well, he
that's been the only one that I have heard that that actually went out and
opposed, except when they got into Adam Clayton Powell, one of our leaders
of of yesteryear, of course, but Adam was a peculiar person in many ways.
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Patrick: He had the power of of Harlem behind him in those years.
Therefore he could--the Powell Amendment. I can remember my liberal friends
here speaking against the--Powell Amendment was that amendment which he
would attack on any bill that he could, which said that if you receive
government funds, you cannot discriminate in any way against anybody. Well,
I can remember some of my friends, Jewish friends too, who were opposed
that they thought back in the 60s. That was far fetched. You see you today,
it's understood if you get federal money, you just don't you don't
discriminate. Well, Powell, who started that, I saw some articles critical,
highly critical of of this kind of. Excuse me. This kind of statesmanship,
lack of statesmanship. But I don't think that the Black politician allowed
himself to be put in a position where he had to be reined back in. He just
stayed back, you see, and let the others carry the ball. And so far as I
was able to observe and to experience during my years out there.
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Snow: I was just wondering what you saw as the relationship between the
civil rights movement and feminism or the women's rights movement?
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Patrick: Feminism is riding on the backs of the civil rights movement. In
fact, all of these minority groups now are riding on the backs of of of the
60s civil rights movement. I think the women have done well because they're
prepared. You know, I look at every every broadcast. You have two or three
White women. You may have one. Well, last night you had one on ABC. Had one
on, oh, CBS. Oh, they have maybe 1 or 2, something like that, but they
don't have--but we are not we are not prepared. They're not very many of us
women or men. So I'm I am glad to see the White woman get where she is, the
feminist. Now, it does not apply. Their agenda, by and large, does not
doesn't appeal to the Black woman because, you know, they're the ones who
are getting getting their feminism and they have us in their kitchen
washing their dishes and cleaning their house. And I'm not saying anything
that they out there fighting for, for us, us being the Black woman, but I'm
glad to see them move up. And I'm hoping that by 2008, Hillary will run for
president because I think she'll be elected. I think it's too early for her
to run in 2004. I think she needs to finish her term and show that she can
be a serious senator. And in 2008 George Bush, he hopefully go out in 2004,
but if they run dashedly against him, he won't. And Al Gore has had his
chance. He can't, he can't come back. He now has been at that level, I
think. But I'm hoping she'll make it.
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Patrick: I'm glad to see the White woman-- because by extension, some
Black women are going to make it. And as I mentioned, way back then, we
were talking about colleges. There are more Black women in college than
there are Black men. Therefore, let them. Let the White woman do what she
can because she-- In that sense, she can--can--get rid of the glass
ceiling, I think it gives us a chance. I think it'll be easier for her to
break up that glass ceiling than it is for Black. Snow: Could be Patrick:
These three Blacks who are on the copy of Newsweek. Who are, who--well, I
saw a letter in the next copy of Newsweek stating that. Take this off
again. [ed. note: Patrick is asking Snow to take his microphone off] People
at--these three Black men cut the glass ceiling. And this letter, I was
trying to find a letter to the editor, but it's not that issue of the--of
Newsweek. It came over the next week that he's saying he's a tenured
professor at a college. He said there are 100 and I think he said 142 of us
tenured professors around the country. Among the 1500 or 15,000 tenured
faculty. What? What? What are you talking about, Black power? We don't have
any Black power. These three people don't have any Black power. Well, but I
still feel and I said a moment ago that if these women can, can get rid of
the glass ceiling, then we at least we stand to stand a better chance
because it's been the White man's and the White gentile probably again
placed in the Black city. Are you a Gentile or Jew?
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Snow: I'm Presbyterian, so I'm a Gentile.
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Patrick: You're a Presbyterian? Snow: Yes. Patrick: You are a
Presbyterian? Snow: Yes. Patrick: What church are you in?
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Snow: East Liberty.
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Patrick: You're in East Liberty. You're going to lose Chestnut in a month.
Snow: Right. Patrick: Be careful who you put in there. Very, very careful.
Well, let us say that another said that there were three Jews who nominated
each of these Blacks in their firms. A. W. Warner, so on and so on and so.
And it just shows--it's saying we can work together. But then the Jews had
to fight for his place in the sun. He had--he had to go out and really make
it. Make. Make himself be accepted. Because I understand that, you know,
you, I didn't I didn't realize that the Jew was so hated. In high school, I
remember talking, but I didn't know what they were talking--I couldn't
understand what they were talking about. I remember one of the instructors
and some had a group of as I said, this is a Jewish school primarily,
saying, and they say that they won't let us. They say all we do is go on,
go down on open a shops on Bainbridge Street. Bainbridge is one of the
South streets, Bainbridge Street is a business streets. He was saying that
and I didn't know this--and I'm on the outside, you know, just sort of
picking up what I'm hearing, and saying--he was saying as a Jew, University
of Pennsylvania first wouldn't let them in. Then when they let them, they
said all they going to do-- [tape ends]
