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Snow: This is tape four. This is tape four of a State and Local Government
Archives interview with Reverend LeRoy Patrick. It is February 18th, 2002.
Was Mayor Barr supportive of the civil rights demonstrators?
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Patrick: I do not remember him being out there with us, but I do remember
him ever opposing it in any way. I don't remember any adverse things coming
from his administration about the civil rights movement. If it--if there
was such feeling on his part, it was it didn't get down to my level. Now, I
didn't move into his circle, obviously, so I don't know what may have
transpired at other levels. But if you ask me, it was he for the civil
rights movement, I would say he was not against it. Snow: Okay. Patrick:
Yeah.
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Snow: He had gotten a lot of federal money for he had he had received a
lot of federal grants for the community action. Pittsburgh, for example.
Yeah. And he had set up a mayor's service center.
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Patrick: I had no dealings with that. Snow: Okay. Patrick: No dealing. A
lot of money came into Pittsburgh from the feds, but it stayed downtown.
Snow: Did it? Patrick: Stayed downtown. Didn't get into communities?
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Snow: When and how did you become involved with the Pittsburgh Area
Religion and Race Council?
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Patrick: I've been trying to think what what what that is about. I can't
remember. Religion and race council. I can't remember that. Can you give me
a clue as to what?
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Snow: I just had from your newspaper clippings at the History Center. I
saw that. Well, the Courier said that you chaired it in 1963.
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Patrick: I chaired it? I guess I did, if they say I did it, I kind of I
kind of I had I had to at the Synod level. I was on the Synod and the
Presbyterian Church. We are a great the great geographically Pittsburgh
Presbytery, which is Allegheny County and above that is a synod, which is
all of the presbyteries in the state of Pennsylvania. I was chairman of the
Synod Religion and Race Council from its inception to its demise. That was
in the 60s, however. And that the that began that would have begun, '62,
somewhere around then. And the purpose of that was to sensitize the church
to issues of race. Try to get them put on programs, ameliorating the race
problems and issues in their communities and so on. Try to get them to
support the--the push for civil rights action bills. Fair Employment. Fair
housing. So on. [chimes sound] That that was the that was at the Synod
level. I was the chair under Frederic Kerrigan [??], who died several years
ago. When [??] was the executive, he was the first chairman and then I was
the vice chairman and he became executive and I became a chairman. But I
don't don't remember a Pittsburgh Race and Religion Council. Maybe. Maybe
they're confusing. Maybe they are confusing the two.
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Snow: It could be.
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Patrick: Could be. Yeah.
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Snow: Because that same article said you were on the Democratic State
Committee, so.
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Patrick: Oh, well.
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Snow: So it's suspect.
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Patrick: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, well, yeah. Well, I was sure I'm one of
the--as we were saying earlier, the Democratic Black Political Committee.
Which we organized and which petitioned the National Democratic Party to be
more inclusive, as well as the state party to run some Blacks for for other
than judges, you know, for officers and so on. We we organized that, I
think, in the Urban League office with Art Edmonds. Chairman Art Edmonds.
Rod Davenport. I. Well. Anyway, we had a meeting in Harrisburg. John--Ron
had some friends who he knew in Philadelphia, and we all met and we
organized this group and we worked together with we had. Well, it was when
Shapp was running the first time--he lost the first time he ran and he came
back and spent some money and got in there. Well, we were--we were I
remember meeting him in Harrisburg and having our group because I believe
Byrd Brown was the one who handed him the check for $1,000 from us to. We
said, we know you have some money. At least it is alleged you have some
money, but we want you to know we are serious about wanting to be included
in your administration. So we gave him our check and that's when he
appointed [??] as secretary of state. He appointed--several other people. I
don't remember now what they were what. Lincoln Board. Well then they got
word about that committee is that we were petitioning. Oh. I think it was
'72. The National Democratic Committee Selection Committee elected the
delegates from Pennsylvania who were to attend.
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Patrick: Apparently this is done by a national committee which goes into
each community, as I remember the situation. At any rate, they selected a
committee which didn't have a single Negro, not a Black man. Not a Black
woman. And Leroy was the you know, a prominent he was I don't think he had
speaker, but I think he was he may have been speaker. And if he were not
speaker, he would have been the majority leader. So we had an indignation
meeting in Philadelphia and agreed we would attend the committee meeting of
the National in Washington at the Mayflower Hotel. And I went down there
and the people from Philadelphia and a few from Pittsburgh went with me.
Hold that committee. You got to do something about Pennsylvania. You have a
delegation without a single Afro-American. And we're going. We're going.
So, they said, were--are we going to support some other some candidate? Oh,
we got our own one. All right. They going to put. They were put on and Tom
Forrester offered to resign and put Irvis in his place. Well, he couldn't
put Irvis in any place. He couldn't put Irvis in his place. It had to be
done by the committee. Well, anyway, was appointed. He did. Irvis was
appointed by--and he, I don't know whether Tom resigned or what happened
there, but I remember standing before that committee, National committee. I
guess I was a bit arrogant in those years. I guess I might have been
foolish.
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Patrick: But my Philadelphia people were egging me on, you know. We had a
good time. I had a good time. Anyway, we changed and we got we got a Black
in there, got a Black on on the the delegation, which was the vote for the
candidate for the president. And I believe it was in '72. I don't know.
Well well, we had meetings with the state, whoever was state chairman
trying to get them to slate some Black for statewide office, because Blacks
have never been state, state except for the judgeship. You know, a judge
has no power once he gets in office. He's his hands are tied. He cannot
speak. He cannot. We never did get that through. We didn't get anybody
to--we didn't get that in. But at least we made a fuss around. We had
Andrew Young coming to speak to a fund raising fair in Philadelphia. I
remember Andrew because he worked with Martin Luther King, you know. And
when he said when King came out with that statement about America being the
most violent country in the world and Vietnam with he said their
contributions went plummeted, down the drain, the contribution from the
people. You know, the Southern Christian Leadership Council got conferences
all over the country. But and he said, you know, a speech he made at the
Rockefeller Church in Washington and New York Riverside Church, when he
said America is the most is the purveyor of the most of arms in the world
today. Johnson was furious. And Andrew said it took--they took a nosedive
in that money.
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Patrick: Well, we're fundraising with him. We use the fundraising to give
money to the political party. But particularly I remember sending
someone--Dolores--I didn't know the guy, but Dolores said that in his
travels had come across a man in South Carolina who was running for some
office, and she wanted us to send some money to him. I didn't oppose it
because I thought, well, you know, I'm not on that level. I'm just down
here and I didn't oppose it. And we at least synthesized [??] the party.
Now, the the established Blacks, that is the the party Blacks, Leroy Irvis
wouldn't attend our meetings. They considered we were upstarts and we were.
I think they considered we couldn't be controlled and we couldn't. I think
they thought the better part of valor have nothing to do with us. And they
didn't. We were existed for several years. Then it was never a large group
meeting. We might have 20 people Philadelphia, parish [??] for Martin
Fields [??], Pittsburgh, so on. But the perception and the first that you
make--when you make the news, your perception is that you you must be
somebody. So I must be somebody. So they asked me, what did I think about
Flaherty? I said, It's bad news for Blacks. Oh, they go for him. You know,
I'm a Democrat. I'm for. Anyway, Flaherty didn't get elected and Thornburgh
didn't. I don't know whether I had anything to do with it or not, but I
said it. I said it. Those were happy years, it WAS one thing after
another.
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Snow: When Flaherty was elected mayor in 1969, did he receive much support
from Black civil rights leaders?
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Patrick: I don't know whether he received much support, but he was not--I
was not anti-Flaherty. Had his one of his first Homewood meeting was in my
church. Snow: Was it? Patrick: He and Watson, I recall were--launched their
campaign--well, I don't say he launched it, but at least I remember both of
them being at a rally. We used to have rallies in our fellowship hall,
basement church. I don't remember him as being active in civil rights in
any way. But here again, not I don't recall any incidents in where he may
have opposed civil rights in any way. No. Oh. And it wasn't until he spoke
before the board that I knew how violent and how virulent he could be in a
matter like that. Oh, he was--he had not given me that impression because--
impression because I had supported him when he came, as I said, to my
church and, you know, speak to the group there. And if--I'm the pastor, I
give my information to you, it looks like--it looks like he's kosher. Oh,
but I never had any direct dealings with him, man to man. Snow: I see.
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Snow: In terms of that school board fight, he said, Flaherty said, in an
oral history interview.
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Patrick: He wanted to do what?
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Snow: Flaherty, when I interviewed him, said that he wanted, instead of
forced busing, to build neighborhood schools on the borders between Black
and White neighborhoods. So that the students wouldn't have to be bussed.
Did you see him make any proposals like that?
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Patrick: No. I Don't. It must not have gotten any beyond the talking stage
because there was never any talk about any new schools where our kids and
their kids would be coming together. Never, never any talk. So Marlin, who
preceded that too, but then Marlin was superintendent for a good while, was
going to have, build great high schools. You remember that? Or you write
about that Reizenstein is on the piece of land now that was going to be
part of a great high school. He was going to build 4 or 5 of them around
the city, 5000, 6000, 10,000 members with modules. With the grades and
modules. But he wouldn't have integration. I spoke against it at a meeting
and he thought I'd be for it. But there was nothing about integration in in
in his plan as he's presented it. I have thought the plan was good. It
would have made a tremendous. He bought all this land. The school board
owned half of East Liberty--the board. Reizenstein Middle School, that
whole housing complex that's there. But Marlin then took a job at Princeton
with the educational service, I think. And he had no money--this was talk,
but he claims he had money from or committed money from Washington. He may
have. I don't know. At any rate, he left town and and the idea died. And
then the people said all this land is off the tax rolls, put it back on the
tax rolls. And but I thought if he had stayed around and built one high
school to show that it could, whether it could work, I would, I would
[chimes sound] have would have been pleased. I would have, because I think
it could have been the means where we could have had integration without a
lot of folderol, which came along later. But he and I fussed a long time he
was there, that is, I was at his board meetings opposing him.
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Patrick: And he didn't like me and I didn't like him. Well, but I don't
remember Flaherty ever saying anything about any building new schools. You
can't just build a new school. You got to got to make arrangements. You've
got to get money. You got to get. And who has the bonds? When I was
president, I remember going up to New York to sign bonds. And interesting,
they have a pen that's attached to maybe the five--you've seen those
things--five of them. So I'm signing my name here, and that means I'm
signing it on five different pieces of bond. Well. I never heard anything
about any new schools for us. I would have been the same. I would have been
as long as you were talking about integrating the schools, we wanted
integrated schools, we wanted integrated teaching, we wanted integrated
administration. But I never heard him saying say anything, now, he may have
spoken those words to other folk and other circles because when he and I
met, this is not--usually a confrontation, you know. Snow: Wow. Patrick: So
we, not--we didn't meet that that often, but when we did. As chairman of
the NAACP. I was I mean, I was chairman of the committees. I was, I went to
a lot of things that other people didn't want to touch. No. So I guess I've
made a lot of friends in that way.
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Snow: Flaherty also said that a lot of African American parents were
against busing. Did you see that?
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Patrick: No. They may have said that to him and some of the parents may
have been against busing. I can see mothers don't want to put their kids on
the bus. On the bus going away. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to put my
kids on the bus going on a strange neighborhood because I don't know. But
how else are you going to integrate the schools still? But we didn't have
any integration. As I said initially when we started talking, we had, we
had what would be de-segregation. That's a difference. You know,
integration means you try to get the thing together? So far as I know,
there was never any effort on the part of any administration to try to
get--to make it work, make it gel. Neither Whites, nor Blacks. Never saw
him. Never saw anybody working for it.
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Snow: What role did Tom Forrester play in that fight?
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Patrick: As far as I know, he played no role. Of course he was County. And
he didn't. He didn't. He didn't. On that level where we were working, he
didn't--he didn't bother. At least I don't remember him ever being anywhere
where I was in these matters. And he was a nice guy. So as far as I knew, I
don't know. I heard he ran a tight ship, but I didn't know. I didn't--I
didn't have any personal dealings with him.
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Snow: I was just wondering also if you could comment on Dick Caligiuri as
mayor and what he did for the neighborhoods.
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Patrick: I didn't have much dealings with Caligiuri. He gets credit for
doing a lot of things and being a great mayor. I don't know where he did
these things. I don't know when he did these things. I don't know what
these things are. I really don't. And I spoke to Jim Sims once. Sims was at
his office. Jim, what is this, all this greatness about Caligiuri? He
didn't know. He couldn't tell me. He couldn't cite. These are the things
that--and I still don't know anything he did for, with, to Blacks. He was
just another one of those ethnics who looked for, looked out for his
ethnics. I never had any personal dealings with him on any level. And most
we would do was meet on a platform with some program or other. You see, I
don't remember--I don't ever remember being in a meeting where things were
discussed in which he and I were a part. And I don't remember any greatness
there either. In my judgment, he was a lightweight. Snow: Was he? Patrick:
About the comments I would hear from him. I first ran into him when he was,
like secretary of Parks and Supplies. Parks and parks. I don't remember why
I had to go to his office. He was then in the fifth, fifth, fifth flower
show his office, as I recall. At least I remember meeting him there for
some reason. I don't remember why now, what the reason might have been, but
I was never impressed with Caligiuri. And so when they put a statue out in
front of the county building, well, we want to make a hero. We want to--we
want to--we want--we, we must have one. We don't have one. We don't--we
just not with it. I don't know. No, we do have to create heroes, you know,
because that's what people have done with me. There's nobody else around.
And I'm as good as a person as any, I guess. So they, they're, he's our
hero. [laughs] You're not fooling me. I know they're not fooling me.
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Snow: You mentioned that Flaherty came and gave a well, had a meeting at
your church. I was just wondering in general how you've seen the role of--
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Patrick: How?
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Snow: How has the role of the African American church in politics changed
over the course of your career?
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Patrick: We have a freedom in politics that apparently the White pastors
don't have. I had Republicans meeting at Bethesda. The Republican Committee
will come to me and say, we want to have a meeting. Okay. All right. I had
the authority as a pastor because people generally trusted me. I had
Democrats meeting there. We could speak out for. I never try to tell the
people how to vote. I won't tell you how to vote now, but I'll tell you
that I'm going to vote for Thornburgh. Well, if you can get the message, I
hope. I wouldn't tell you how to vote. One woman said to me, You know, I
felt so strange pulling that Republican lever.
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Patrick: But she pulled it.
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Patrick: Because I said I'm not. Well, I say the people allow us to have
that kind of say so, that kind of leadership, that kind of influence
because most of us are honest about it, I don't--most of us were not for
sale, I don't think. Of course, I was never offered enough to be tempted.
[laughs]
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Snow: Were you ever offered anything?
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Patrick: I don't know what I've been offered. I don't know what they could
have offered me to tempt me.
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Snow: So they didn't offer you anything?
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Patrick: They didn't offer anything. So. And I didn't offer them anything
except opposition most of the time. So we had a great time together. Well,
I mean, I never ran for office, and I never sought favors from anybody in
office. Well, I never had that kind of relationship. And I think most of
the preachers that I think of in Homewood were not--some of them may have
got a little something out of it, I don't know. But I didn't get anything
out of it [unintelligble] that took anything. Would have been something.
You know, I suppose you can be offered something and be it be enough to
tempt you or you can be offered something and so little to insult you. I
never had the chance to be tempted or insulted.
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Snow: That's good. Excuse me a moment while I turn the tape over.
