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Jon Eric Johnson: Okay. Sociologists have said in the past that the Jewish
community is closest to the Black community. What are your views on that?
Willie C. Norman: Uh, it's according to how you look at it. Economically,
uh, the Jewish community-- years ago, the Jews used to have a grocery store
on every corner in the Black community. Okay. That's what made them close.
Business. If the Jew didn't have a store, he had a pack on his back going
from house to house. He went to the Black community. Economics again. Okay.
Uh, if he had a grocery store, I mean, a department store on the edge of
town. He got close to the Black community as he could get. He monitored to
the Black community. Economics again. Okay. Now we get away from economics.
The Jew made a lot of money with the Black people. I remember years ago
when the Ragman would come through the community with a horse and a wagon.
He come through the Black community. Rags and old iron. Right? Scrap Iron.
Rags. Black community or the poor White community. Okay? He didn't go to
Squirrel Hill or Sewickley. Okay, now we get out of the economic community.
We get into social aspect of this thing. Religious aspect of this thing.
There's no relationship in my way of thinking that the Jew is so close they
related to the Black community socially or religiously.
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Norman: No relationship whatsoever. Entirely a new, different world. The
Black man is out of his league with the Jew economically, socially, and
religiously. So anyone would tell you that it's just leading you up a blind
alley. This is my thinking. Now, you can take it one step further. The Jew
will break his neck to keep a Black man from a Jew woman. But he likes the
Black woman. After the sun goes down. If you get what I'm saying. Johnson:
I get it. Norman: Okay. Now, I have never seen this. Now the Jews do
contribute to Black causes, but the Jews typify themselves as being the
most persecuted people on earth. But this is a, this is a, this is a thing
that they use. To me, it's a gimmick. It's-- to me it's a gimmick. And I
can't buy all that. Johnson: To my listening professors. We're not, uh,
staging an anti-Semitic session here-- Norman: No, I'm not anti. I believe
in the man being a man to a man. But don't give me that story. You know,
that I'm your brother. Hell, you're not my brother. I don't believe in
that. Johnson: What did your parents teach you about color consciousness?
Norman: Uh, you see, my parents were like I stated, my mother was an
illiterate. They were born and raised on a farm in Georgia.
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Norman: And they always believed for years and years that this is a White
man's world, you know. And we should stay in our place. And I never
altogether accepted that after I became a man. And we used to rap about it.
We used to talk about it. And my stepfather was a good-- hard working. He
worked 40 years at Union Switch and Signal over there in Swissvale. And the
White man was his king, his boss. He was just whitewashed, I used to say,
you know. In the vernacular, he was brainwashed that the White man is his
superior because he was he was brought up and raised up that way. And he
was just, in the vernacular, again, a good nigger. But I'm not a good
nigger. I can't see it that way. I just don't see it. I think a man should
be judged on his moral values, his ability to do a thing and given a free
rein to do it. But he should have moral scruples. You know, he's got to be
morally upright. I believe in that. Johnson: How do you feel about the the
Amos, Amos 'N' Andy, uh, uh, television shows when they were on and what
changes have you noticed about Blacks on TV's and on TV today? Norman: Um,
for a long time, you know, uh, TV just forgot about Blacks.
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Norman: You know, when TV first became popular, when we had the ten inch
screen, uh, Blacks were still in the racist, racist American society. And
Blacks had their place. Black professionals would be shown on TV and
applauded, given their check, and sent out the back door. But these things
are changing now. Getting back to Andy 'N' Amos, we call them Andy and
Amos. You call them Amos and Andy. Okay. Now getting back to Andy 'N' Amos.
Andy 'N' Amos depicted the Black community very good. Because we had this
type of prestigious Black who only was thinking of himself. You see,
prestige and power, economic power, political power, social power, or
whatever power you may refer to. There's a difference. Prestige don't mean
a damn thing. Prestige is just an abstract term. And these were the Amos
'N' Andy people. We still call them that in the Black community, people
looking for prestige. That's the Amos 'N' Andy people, understand? Now
people looking for power and usable forces to upgrade the Black community.
This is the type of people that we're concerned with and we should be
concerned with in the Black community. Johnson: What other positive gains
or positive measures or steps do you think we should--
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Johnson: Implement in the Black community? Specifically Homewood and
Brushton that we're most familiar with, at least I am.
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Norman: Positive steps to to upgrade this community. Johnson: Yes.
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Johnson: That's a very difficult question.
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Norman: Boy, that's, that is, that's a problem. That's a problem that has
about 16 or 20 outlets. [laughter] And to wrap them up, to wrap them up in
one. Um, I don't know. I think, um, I think we've all played this thing
called Black Pride in the Black community. I think we've overplayed that.
You know, Black is beautiful. You know? Uh, we live in a mixed society, and
we're all human beings. All Black this or all White this. I don't, I don't
buy all White and all Black. I heard a gentleman say one day we're wall to
wall in Homewood now, meaning that it's all Black. I said, brother, you're
going to be sorry one of these days you are wall to wall. Your property
values went down. Your police protection is gone. Vices are rampant. You
know, this wall to wall thing for all Black and all White, I don't buy it.
But getting back to what you originally asked me, the Blacks, if they are
so proud of being Black, they better start showing it by cleaning up the
Black communities themselves. Instead of asking the great White father to
help them to clean it up. It's their dirt and it's their responsibility to
clean it up. It's their school. It's their responsibility to make those
kids go to school and, and be in school to learn. Not to be in school to be
raised. The Black community should start raising the Black children. So
just turn them out in the streets with a jelly sandwich. There's where
we're missing the boat.
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Johnson: Do you remember the racial disturbances? I remember the ones
primarily in the late 60s. What are your views on this? Do you feel as
though the Black people should have resorted to means of physical violence,
or do you feel as though they should have patterned themself after Dr.
Martin Luther King in the sense of being non-violent?
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Norman: Uh, I think the nonviolent approach was was the better approach
than the violent, the wraparound approach. But some of this had to come
about. You see, some of this had to come about. Now, the Black people have
been down on their knees praying in this country to God for deliverance and
for the White man to deliver them for, say, two, 300 years. And they didn't
get the first base. Now, some violence, I think, was necessary, but I don't
approve of a total violent program. We're about 30. We're about 33 or 35
million strong in the United States. But we control nothing. If violence
should erupt, we control nothing. The system has been set up so that we
don't control it. It's not just accidental. None of this is accidental.
Okay, now. But Martin Luther King, the NAACP, the Urban League and the
Black Coalition and all of that, as I stated before, we're too fragmented
with no central leadership at the top with imagination enough to organize
the Black forces. Whether it be making a viable force, whether it be
economically, politically or what have you. We just don't have it. And like
I said earlier, these things don't just happen. We're not just accidentally
out of it where weaponry is, is concerned. It's it's a planned thing. Now,
we got to we've got to start planning to have a central leadership
community for the entire Black population of the United States and adhere
to instructions from this, this head at the top, which was so fragmented.
If you look around, we were so fragmented in this city until we couldn't
get together and, and do anything. Socially, politically or economically.
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Johnson: It's interesting that you mentioned fragmentation in Pittsburgh
in the Black community. You know, what can we do? You know, I mean, I
notice myself that Pittsburgh's Black communities are the Hill District,
Homewood and Beltzhoover and Northside, and that's it really, just about.
Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Uh, you know, what can we do to to strengthen the
Black political movements, the Black social movements here in Pittsburgh?
What can be done?
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Norman: I can tell you one, one avenue that we can take to start it. Uh, I
made mention of the fact that the Christian church. As we know it. It's an
organized Christianity, okay? It's organized. Now we have the Black
Baptist, Methodist. You name it, we got them. Black. Every Sunday morning
in this city of Pittsburgh. The Black preachers stand in the pulpit and
talk to the Black community. But they are all on their separate ego trip,
I'll say. Now, if the Black preachers in this city would start organizing
the Black people in this city or in other cities under one roof with one
guideline, one program. Then we could become a very strong, strong force in
this city. I'm just saying. This city, or in this county. Then we could, we
could start to be coming together. But I again, I returned to that same
statement. We're too fragmented. Everybody's doing their own thing. You
know, this is my little candy bank. This is my little thing. If I get out
and get, get mixed up with you guys, I might blow this. That's that's
that's the problem. They want us fragmented. I mean, the establishment. The
establishment wants us to stay fragmented, and they'll put funds into a
community to keep us fragmented through a HBCIA, Better Block, the Black
churches with daycare centers and stuff like that. We don't-- we shouldn't
have to have those. We should be able to take care of our own. We shouldn't
have to have those things. There's thousands of dollars funneled into the
Black community with all kinds of little fancy organizations. I helped
structure one. I walked away from it after I found out which way it was
going. Fact
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Johnson: Fact. That was the organization that was in the Homewood Boston
area. That's right.
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Norman: I helped structure that organization. Yeah, I was the chairman of
the Homewood Brushton Alliance. That was a group of local, uh, community
organizations. And we we decided to make a mass base organization out of
it. So we did. We dismantled the Homewood Brushton Alliance and made fat.
And when the preachers got control of it, they went down the drain for
money. Fighting over money. The local ministry.
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Johnson: You-- since you've been here in Pittsburgh. You know, you've been
here for a number of years. And over those period of years, do you remember
who the most outstanding individuals in the Black community have been?
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Norman: In what area?
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Johnson: Just in the city as a whole. Norman: I mean--
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Norman: You mean in the city as a whole politically? Johnson:
Politically.
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Johnson: Economically. Socially. Anyone that we feel has had a major
impact on the Black community here in Pittsburgh.
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Norman: I would have to say I do believe the one individual and in the
city of Pittsburgh that made the biggest impact on the Black community in
the city of Pittsburgh would have to be Robert L Vann, the man that started
and founded the Pittsburgh Courier paper that I had referenced to earlier.
He had a tremendous impact on the the Black thinking. See, a paper is a
powerful weapon, a very powerful weapon. However, he did turn that paper
into a political thing for his personal gain, but he did have a tremendous
impact on the Black community. I would have to say Robert L. Vann.
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Johnson: Since Dr. Martin Luther King's movement, the younger Black
movement has taken over. Do you, as an elder Black, see any positive
measures that have been implemented by them? And what is your general--
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Norman: By the young Blacks? Johnson: Yes.
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Johnson: What is your general reaction to their--
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Norman: Uh, I'm involved now with some young Blacks. Uh, they call
themselves intellectuals. However, I think a lot of them are self-anointed
intellectuals. Uh, that are beginning to pool their thinking. They're
beginning to pool their brain gray matter, and they're beginning to
structure some togetherness, uh, for the, for the Black people in the city.
Uh, right now, I think we're beginning to move in the right direction.
They're also beginning to pool some of their financial resources in the
uplifting of other Blacks that didn't have the opportunity that they're
enjoying today, which is a good sign. If they pool their mental resources
and their financial resources in that direction, uh, voluntarily, I think
they're sincere. And I'm watching this very closely from, from within. I'm
within, I'm within the confines of this, this movement. And I think it will
be a worthwhile movement. If it isn't, then I'll be the first to say no and
I'll tell who is involved just what I think about it and why it is going
awry. If I can detect it soon enough.
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Johnson: As a parent and as a Black man. What is the most important things
that you look forward to passing on to your children? And what do you what
would you like them to accomplish in their lifetime?
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Norman: The thing that I would like to leave is a documentary of some kind
somewhere, uh, for Marcel and the rest of them to look at and say, well,
that Daddy wasn't all bad. I don't care what it is. I'm going to try to
leave something in their minds, uh, about honesty and about working for a
living. Don't stand around and beg. Get out and work. I've already shown
them several work projects where I was involved. My activities, my
participation. They've driven down and watched me work right on the job
site in construction. And this is where it's at. They've got to get out and
work for a living. They can't sit around and look for handouts or leech off
of other people or other relatives. You've got to make it, you know, by
qualifying yourself first, you know, like you're trying to do now and get
on out there and make it. This is the thing I hope I can instill in them.
And if they can-- if they can get that much out of my big mouth and my my
activities and watching me and participate with me, they participate with
me now in my election. They, they do that. They participate me in local
political elections, in the community I get involved in. And this is, this
is the thing I want them to do, too. I want them to participate. I want
them to be honest in their efforts and very sincere. And if they don't feel
there's justification in them being involved in this program, getting
another one. And keep on trying to do something worthwhile. Johnson: Very
well put.
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Johnson: Okay. We're just about finished here. Is there anything else that
you'd wish to discuss? I mean, would you like to reflect on any element of
the Black community? State, local, national? Anything that may come to
mind? Anything that you feel as though may be constructive? Relevant?
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Norman: I would like to, uh, reflect my thinking on the political
situation that we're having across the country today. That is the
nomination of the various candidates for the presidency. I think it's a big
joke for Labor. I'm talking from Labor's point of view, uh, to get really
involved in this thing and to say, well, this is going to be our man,
whether it be Carter, Johnson, Ford, or Humphrey. These men may all have a
certain amount of dedication to labor. Okay, but. If Carter is elected or
if Humphrey is elected. If Ford is elected. Excuse me. I don't care who he
is. Under the present structure that our government is run under today,
supposedly by a representative government, elected by the people. For the
people. You know, the format for this government is not going to be laid
down and drawn up by these people that we elect. Do you hear what I'm
saying? Now, the reason I say that is this. The structure that controls the
economy of this country is going to call the shots for the format. They've
been doing it for years and they'll continue to do it. Now I'm getting back
to Labor. Labor's involvement in this thing. If a Labor man like we'll say
Humphrey is elected, the format is going to be laid down by the same
people.
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Norman: Now Labor should have its own convention. Labor should have its
own delegates at the convention from the various local unions or from the
various district councils to elect their president-- presidential
candidate, their vice presidential candidate from the ranks of labor. Not
labor throwing in behind Humphrey. Not labor throwing in behind Johnson or
Jackson, rather. Scoop Jackson or either Carter. Labor should have a party.
Labor should have a candidate of its own choosing, a vice presidential
candidate of its own choosing, and have a platform, a program geared up by
Labor and supported by Labor, just like big business is doing. This is what
I'm trying to say. If I ever get to-- if I ever get to the position at any
labor conference, if I'm elected, this is going to be my pitch. We're,
we're supporting a program-- diagram laid out by big business. I don't care
whether he's a Democrat or a Republican. The two party system ain't nothing
but some stuff. Johnson: Corporate power. Norman: Corporate power, the
military industrial complex and what else have you. That's what it is.
Labor has got to choose its own-- make it own candidates, elect their own
candidates, fund their own programs, have their own programs, and go by
their own program.
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Johnson: Okay. One final question here. It's 1976. The economy is
seemingly getting better. Is the, uh. Very soon we will be celebrating the
200th anniversary of this country. Norman: Yeah. Johnson: Uh, as a Black
man. Do you feel as though Blacks should participate in the celebration, or
do you feel as though we should sit back on our hands and do nothing?
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Norman: Oh, I think we should participate. We're a mixed society, although
we are a racist society. Okay. You have to work with what you have. You
have to work within the bounds boundaries of what you have. So
participation. I think it's important for the Black people. Crispus Attucks
was was was supposed to be the first man to to die in the Revolutionary War
who was a Black man. But we don't read it in our history books. We read it
in Black history. Okay. Now, we know that history is a lie agreed upon by
certain authorities. Okay. We know this. And we know a lot of other things
that were not taught in our public schools. So to participate, sure, we
should participate, if this is what you're asking me.
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Johnson: Well, this has been a most enjoyable and enlightening interview,
and I appreciate you taking the time. Norman: I'm glad to be available.
Johnson: From your life and your family. And, uh, I just hope my professor
appreciates it. [laughter]
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Johnson: Okay. Thank you very much. Norman: That's good.
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Johnson: That's fantastic.
