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Snow: This is tape three of a State and Local Government Archives
interview with Reverend Leroy Patrick. You were talking about how the
schools are almost more segregated now than when you started trying to
integrate them. Before the tape. Before I changed the tape over.
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Patrick: Well, that's what everybody is saying, at least not everybody.
But that is what is written. I read--I just cut it out because I wanted to
save it, a piece by, well, somebody let's--The Courier. Or maybe it's over
here. Oh. Oh. "The Limits of Integration" by Manning, Manning Miraval [??].
It's in Saturday's paper, Saturday the 16th paper at the very end. And he
is you know, he supposed, no man know what he's talking about at the very
end. And you see, I just cut it out because I wanted to I wanted to save
this particular paragraph. He says that actually as much as--much
segregation there was when we got when we started this whole business. And
obviously he's saying--he's criticized the leaders. We've got to think of
another strategy. And now I'm--I'm--I'm inclined now to to to agree with
him. That, you know, I had, well, we picketed the school board. I was in
school board meetings and I banged on the table and oh, to get integration
and had to fight like hell with--with--with--with--with the superintendents
and so on. And we finally--and even--even--even Pete Flaherty,
when--when--when--Curfew and Human Relations--Pennsylvania Commission on
Human Relations ordered integration here, he came before a board meeting to
tell the folk he really playing to the galleries that, you know, you don't
have to pay these--you don't have to obey these orders. And I alone among
the board members said, you are the mayor of the city, the chief
magistrate, you ought to be encouraging the people to to encourage and so
on and so on.
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Patrick: So, I mean, I put a lot of effort into the into the whole
integration business. The Whites never allowed it to work. That is. And you
see what Gene Fink has done now. The board now. I despair of a school
system under that kind of leadership. But I'm inclined to think that he,
Miraval, is, is right that we've got to think of another strategy. One of
the reasons we fought so hard to get schools integrated was that we were
always--I wouldn't say always--what we got, usually the used books. My sons
tell me they remember in Lincoln School, getting books with other people,
other schools names on them, used textbooks, you see, used books. And the
principal would not allow the kid to take the books home because they lose
the books. And I had to go into the principal of that day and say, if they
lose the book, I will pay for it, but my kids must have the books. Well,
that was the kind of mentality we were fighting against. Get integration.
We get good books we get--we won't have--we. They'll take care of our
school. Well, our schools are still among the worst. We, our scores are way
down. The SAT scores are way down.
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Patrick: Except for Van School. You know, Van is in the Hill there. [ed.
note: Patrick is referring to Pittsburgh's Hill District neighborhood.]
That's--apparently it depends upon the leadership of that school. But how
are we going to get our kids ready for the cybernetic age if we can't get
them educated. And they're not being educated. I look at the kids, I go to
the pipe shop there in East Liberty, Highland and on Highland Avenue there,
you know, down the street from the Keystone Building, Highland Avenue and
Broad Street, going up toward Home Depot, there's a pipe shop. I go there
to get my Courier because I almost always could get one there. I go other
places and they had a half dozen and they sold a half a dozen. Well, I see
these kids hanging around. Some of them were in--some of them men--my, my
sons are men now, they have children in their own home. Some of them were
in school, my kids, they had no education and nobody to push them. Reverend
Patrick, do you have a duck? Okay, here, a couple of ducks. So I see other
kids, teenagers now, walking around when they should be in school because
school is not...for them. There's no way--we are not meeting their needs.
How do we meet their needs? I'm sure we have to find a way, Michael, to
meet their needs. Otherwise we're going to lose them. You've seen the
statement, and I guess it's true still that we have more of our young
people in jail than we have in college.
00:06:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000
Patrick: My school, Lincoln, was a boys school. We became co-educational
in in '60 or '61, 62, somewhere around there. Now we are maybe 55% girls.
You know, the girls, there's more girls than boys. I noticed at
commencement, I'm, as I said a while ago, I'm still on the board there. I
see the honor students are girls. There are more girls honor students
[chimes sound] than there are boys. So we have--we are in the process
of--if you've not already done it--losing this generation of kids and
nothing. Well, I don't know what's being done. I don't think vouchers is
the problem--is the solution. And I don't think that not because the
voucher school isn't good, but because it's a little bit of money we are
draining off the regular schools. No, my, um, my son in Sewickley sends his
kids to private school. Cost you a lot of money. He's a physician, so he's.
They were not allowed more than 17 in a class. That's 17 per class. 15 is,
is usual, but sometimes 17. And I visited his school on Grandparent's Day
and the beautiful surroundings and the--the, all of the apartments. I went
to Macon School a couple of weeks ago because one youngster in the fifth
grade, had written me one--we were there inviting prominent Pittsburghers
to come in and speak to their class. And will you come and speak to our
class, Reverend Patrick? And oh, sure.
00:08:10.000 --> 00:09:51.000
Patrick: I go, well, they're putting an addition on the school. But the--I
looked at the kids who were--the children who were. Oh, I don't know what
this is, 1 or 2 classes, but there must have been 30 plus kids in this. And
I looked at them in sorrow--I wept to see these kids. You know, I said they
cannot possibly get what my grandchildren are getting over here in this
private school. We will not spend the money on our schools. We cannot raise
the taxes. The Whites have left the city, so we can't get the you--we
always had a fight on the school board when I was there, when you wanted to
raise taxes. And now that the school is predominantly, predominantly Black,
or at least a majority Black, Whites will not vote for tax increases. So
the schools are never going to have enough money, I suspect, to do what the
job they should do. I don't know to what degree the administration and
maybe Thompson is doing something about this. I don't know. But I can
remember going into Westinghouse High School when I was pastoring in
Homewood and going into the classrooms of--a couple of we ministers, we'd
go, just take a--let them see us. Make ourselves visible. I went in one
room and this little White girl. She may have been 23, just out of college,
obviously. And doing the best she could with this class.
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Patrick: She had a group around her desk of 5 or 6 people. There were boys
in the back of the room throwing up football, you know, a basketball going.
She's doing what she could to educate these kids who wanted to learn, but
she obviously couldn't command these kids to come up, because they were
well, they were as big as she was and she was young and inexperienced and
it's this teacher who should have been in an easy school who was in
Westinghouse. And I got worried that one of the criticisms we were making
when I was chairman of the NAACP Education Committee was that you you send
your worst teachers to our schools and they stay there. Our kids are not
getting it. I stuck with my kids and my wife--well, I shouldn't say I
because my wife, I give her credit--I don't take any credit for them, but
they turned out all right. My--my--my older boy--my younger boy went to
Peabody. Both of them went to Peabody. But my younger boy was put in the
advanced placement class. My other boy who still wears life with a loose
garment. [laughs] You don't get all got excited about. He never got excited
about school. He's in a regular class. Gregory and the advanced--the
English wasn't the same. The books they had to read were not the same, you
see. Well, and my boy Stephen was not--he was a bright kid. You just had to
push him, you know? And I think of these kids who don't have parents who
pushed them, who would have the.
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Patrick: In a sense. Well, what they're doing, what they want to do,
they're playing football and good football. And they are. They're not in
the academic courses. The well, Whites tend to think we can't do this. Or
Larry Moncrief, I heard him say once, he went to Carnegie Mellon and he
wanted to be. Oh, some kind of engineer. Whether electrical or civil or
what? Anyway, his mother is with him, and she. The counselor told him that
was not the not the course for him. But when they left the office. Well,
told him, my boy, don't you let that man tell you what you cannot do. Don't
let that White man tell you you can't do it. You want to do it, you're
going to do it. God will make a way for you. And Larry became an engineer.
Snow: Wow. Patrick: He became one, then he went on to law school, became a
lawyer. But my point is, the counselor and I understand they still do it to
a good degree in our school so that, you know, you're not you're not take
this industrial arts course or take this, you know, the academics are not
for you. Well. We are losing our kids. And I don't know what's going to
happen because the integration part of it is very spotty, very spotty. I
don't see anybody working to make it un-spotty.
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Patrick: If John Thompson can sit here long enough, maybe he can do
something about it because he would be conscious of it. The other
principals or the other superintendents? I'm not sure. So at least the ones
I had a fight with, I think were not did not care that much about it.
Marlin and who was the other two? I was in the office of all of them in
those years when I was at the school board, I mean, before I went on the
school board, because after I went on the school board, I was on the other
side that people were coming in and giving me hell because the school board
should be doing that. Where are we going to go? Bush says, it's leave no
child behind. But Mary. The what? The woman who is in charge of, uh the
Children's Defense Fund. What is it? Children's defense. You know that
group. Anyway, what her name is, she says she's not satisfied with Bush's
budget. He's not putting the money where it should be, nor is he doing
much. All this talk about not leaving, not leaving a child behind, you
know, unless you put the money there and they're saying that money is not
the answer, the hell it isn't. Well, the kid that I saw--that I've seen. Or
Taylor, who is in charge of the, this group which is fighting for better
schools. Who pointed out that there are some schools districts which spend
$9,000 per pupil.
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Patrick: I don't know what Fox Chapel's is, but it would be certainly
among those. I would suspect that 8 or 9,000 would be coming out of North
Hills schools, whereas the inner city schools may get 4 or $5,000 for--for
the system for--per pupil. And they say money is not the answer. Well,
money gets good teachers for one thing. Money makes it more likely that
you're going to be held accountable. But if nobody's being held
accountable, where are we going to go? I don't know. Now, I hope that John
Thompson stays around long enough to make a difference. I think he can make
a difference because we he knows what the problem is. And we--we being some
Black preachers, went with him, you know, to talk with him, you know, give
him support and that sort of thing. And and I'm pretty sure that Black
educators have talked to him. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure or at least
they feel they could. Well, but he has to stay on the job long enough to
make a generation change. And you if they go on and revise his budget every
year, I can see that he might say, well, you know, I can't stay around this
place because people don't want they don't want what I have to give. I can
see that happening a year or two from now. I don't know. Um, this is your
third page? Yeah.
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Snow: Why did Judge Watson put you on the school board without telling
you?
00:17:08.000 --> 00:18:49.000
Patrick: Oh, because he--he knew I wouldn't refuse. Snow: Okay. Patrick: A
group of us had met. And it was agreed that I should go on the board. I was
with the NAACP and active as a youth and so on and so on and so on. And
he--he knew that I was that some of my peers wanted me on the board. He is.
A Black couldn't be hired--had gotten in the situation and went on the
board. I don't know how that happened. Gene Young, Dr. Young, who just died
last week, three weeks ago now, I guess Gene, Dr. Young went on the board.
I don't know which judge put him on or whether he sought it or not, but he
he had to finally resign because as a physician, he could not get to the
meetings. And it takes a lot of meetings. I spent some weeks. Wartime adult
education building than I could in my church, just attending meetings.
Particularly when we passed a rule that no principal could--could expel a
child for more than three days. You could suspend it with three days. But
if you're going to go beyond three days for a week, then a board member had
to have a hearing with that principal and that student. And I had many
hearings, partly because as a minister, I could I could take my time and
get to a meeting and get back to my church.
00:18:49.000 --> 00:20:22.000
Patrick: But some of the members of the board had the kind of jobs which
would not allow that. So what I'm saying is it takes a lot of meetings to
to run to be a board member. Plus the fact that it's a thankless job.
People curse you for one thing or another all the time. Well, anyway, Gene
Young went on the board, but he couldn't handle it and he had to resign. I
didn't know he had resigned. And then I read in the paper that I was on the
board, my pictures in the paper, and I didn't know. So Warren just put me
on. He knew I could not resign having been on this side and now he put on
this side. He doesn't want to help. He just want to go out there fussing.
You know, that's what could legitimately be said that that was all I was
interested in was not doing something, but just raising raising a row.
That's when I woke up and saw myself on the school board. Well, I didn't
know why my wife called me. She was on the job. What do you mean? I don't
know. So I went on the board and. And I must say, I. I felt it was a
productive period of my life. I think I did some things with that board on
that board for that board for the city as a member that I could not have
done as a chairman of the NAACP Education Committee.
00:20:22.000 --> 00:21:48.000
Patrick: But I was really glad when we went to an elected board because
then I could graciously depart. I chose not to run. I didn't run. And John
Connolly was running. He was going to run. I was happy not to have to run
because, you see, I could I felt maybe it was my own ego and out of place
or that I couldn't resign from the board because people are, you know, were
depending on me. You know, I'm getting calls at home to be alert for so and
so and so they felt they had and maybe they do with other board members,
too. I don't know, because I never talked to other board members about it.
But if you had a particular concern, you might feel free to call me about
it. It might alert me to something that's going to happen in a meeting that
they would allow me to to get certain things on in a certain different way,
you see. And so I didn't feel that I could--I could just walk away from the
board. But I certainly didn't feel that I had to run, particularly when
they weren't when they wanted to run in place for that spot because I got a
lot of prominence. You know, it feeds the ego. You know, you've got to. But
they don't know what It's a costly thing.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:23:28.000
Patrick: Being a leader is a costly thing. And particularly when there's
no money involved, you know, you don't only don't. The only perk I got on
that school board was that I got to park at the lot. [laughs] [chimes
sound] That's all I got, the parking lot that I had to pay to park in.
Okay. So you asked me why he put me on. I think we'll put Patrick on, and
we laugh about it. When we saw each other, we laughed. He laughed at me. I
said, you no good. So when we still laugh from time to time, you know? But
but he felt, I think I can make a contribution and I think I did over the
years. And many people will say to me now, you know, the board's not like
it was when you were there. It's said to me over the years, because even
when I was not chairperson, I could. I had, well, some influence. And as a
chairperson particularly, I was able to. Well, we had 15 members, so it was
a matter of getting some White votes because we finally got five Blacks on
the board. As soon as we got the five Blacks, the Whites started agitating
for an elected board. There was no problem as long as there was a White
board. But we kept getting at it and finally got five. But I needed that
only three White votes. And there were 2 or 3 people. There were three
people that I could I could talk to, you know, get them to see things that
I was seeing.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:24:56.000
Patrick: And this is why I'm looking this way. So if you could see your
way clear to supporting this this item or this issue or this on and in that
way we could get things. I could feel I could get things done. Fink was on
the board in those years [laughs] I know she was not a person--she was not
a person that I could ever talk to because I knew that she and I were. Miss
Maher [??] was on the board and she too was like that. But, you know, at
the end, Miss Maher, who I understand now, is in a nursing home, but then
she said, you know, you know I didn't vote for you. But I got to--I got to
give the devil his due. You've been a good president. I thought that was
very gracious of her, that she would she would say that the board had to
vote me in. And and, you know, there was a we had to take five ballots, you
know, that until I was finally elected.Snow: Wow. Patrick: And one, of
course, Poice [??] would not back down and I wouldn't back down and we
couldn't get a majority of--whatever the majority was, must have been eight
people, whatever it was. But anyway, I've forgotten the man's name now, who
told me he finally changed his vote? Or.
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Patrick: Uh, but Mrs. Maher said, well, you know, I did not vote for you,
but you have made a good president. And I thought that having her say that
meant that my leadership was apparent even to her. It was the time when
[??] and I the only strike school board has had is when I was president.
And our [??] called a strike and I made plans to go to Israel. So I went
over to Israel. They called my house and my wife said, Oh, he's in Israel.
He's out of town. [laughs] Well, as I said to some folk, you know, I'll
just call a strike. He couldn't settle. I was going to be away only for ten
days, I think it was. He couldn't he couldn't settle the thing in less than
2 or 3 or four weeks because you've got to show us who he's leading. If you
come and settle with those bastards, you know he can't do that in a week.
You've got to give it to them. And then he settled because I said, you
know, we're not going to let you run the store. We're not going to give you
the keys to the store. We are the board. But when my church gave me a
reception, you know, he came he came to the reception and complimented me
and gave me a check from his union as appreciation for my leadership.
00:26:21.000 --> 00:27:58.000
Patrick: And I thought that was gracious. You know that--that persons with
whom I have had real differences, at least some of them would feel, well,
maybe--maybe the guy has something, something to say because it was no, you
know, it for me was not a stepping stone. The school was not a stepping
stone anywhere. I was not going anywhere. Now our new record of these could
go from from this ward to the city council and the city council to. Rick
Adams thought he could use it to move when he couldn't--he couldn't move.
But for those who have that kind of ambition. But it was a. I'm pastoring a
church and I've been there now. I don't have that--I don't have that kind
of ambition. You know, I, I went--I when--I when--I when--I went when when
I became a--worked for Thornburgh when he was running for election. I was a
Democrat--I'm still a Democrat. I was I was always have been registered as
Democrat when I worked for Thornburgh. But as far as running against him
and I said, I'm not gonna vote for Flaherty. And he came in that meeting,
he didn't have to do it because it was not a year he was running for
office. Therefore he did not have to play placate the crowd. He did not
have to play to the gallery the way he did.
00:27:58.000 --> 00:29:36.000
Patrick: So I said no. And I went to Washington with them with when he was
being appointed to the he was appointed assistant attorney general or
deputy attorney general, something like that, and testified before the
Congress committee that this man is not because of what he did in
Pittsburgh. What of course it didn't. He got the appointment. But he's a
lightweight, so he couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle Washington.
[laughs] Washington was too much for him. He was back here in a couple of
years. But my point is, what I was going--what I--what I was going for.
Thornburgh--it was that I felt in that time he was a liberal in those
years. I had met him socially at another, another. But he--he changed after
he got into the office and became a conservative. But he appointed me to
the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, which is like a school
board. It's an honor, but it's not a no pay for that job. There's no pay in
the job. You, you, you it's not a commission, which--which has a salary
attached to it. But the and I've been there ever since because the
succeeding Governor really has known what to do with me. [laughs] You need
a Black. I was there with eight, eight, eight. No, the first year the
Senate would not appoint any--would not--would not agree to any
Thornburgh's appointments.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:30:36.000
Patrick: You know, we we were all kept in limbo. The second year of his
term, we were then the Senate agreed to let us go on on the board and the
appointments were made. So I was there for his two terms. Casey didn't
de-appoint me. He didn't. You know, you are there until your successor is
appointed and confirmed by the Senate. And the confirmation, that means you
can move on. But the governor doesn't move you off, he does the appointment
and the Senate has to confirm his appointment. Then they take that. So he
didn't de-appoint me. He didn't appoint anybody in my place. And in his
final year, his eighth year, Casey put me back, put me in official
appointment. I have it somewhere around, the papers. Ridge went in.
[laughs] I had I attended a couple of meetings for Ridge. Lucy Sewell had
asked me to support him. Support. I really supported Luther because Luther
was working for Ridge. And since I had no particular--I don't forget now
who was running. Anyway, for Luther's sake, I attended a meeting where
Ridge was speaking and met him and shook hands and so on and so on. Anyway,
he he came in and--and again. Everybody, I've seen three sets of commission
has moved off that commission and in my years, each governor puts his own
people on. I'm one of the olds--old in term of years. [tape ends]
